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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 7:14:21 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Persisting in your claim that whenever there is prayer there must be a "god" lurking somewhere, or else it isn't prayer, is simply pushing a narrow-minded definition in disregard of the facts of actual practice.

Where did I make that claim?

You mean most recently? You just claimed that Buddhists who pray are by definition NOT non-theists, and that if they're praying to Celestial Buddhas then of necessity those beings are "very obviously gods."

Prayer => God/gods

Move along. Next trick.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/22/2012 7:44:37 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 7:32:09 AM

Rule

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The irony is that GotSteel is so very convinced of being right. That certainty is a prayer! He is spiritually active - without being aware he is!

< Message edited by Rule -- 2/22/2012 7:34:01 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 7:43:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Certainly there is a concept common in Buddhism that the Buddha in heaven are not accessible. Thing is Buddhists who believe that don't pray they engage in different meditation and contemplation exercises.

Er, Buddha in heaven? I'm not a Buddhist, but...
OK, Buddha isn't in heaven, he achieved enlightenment and became one with Nirvana. He successfully ended his self and became part of the universe. Closest way to explain it to a Christian is that he merged his soul with god, except that Nirvana isn't a god, it's a concept.
Now some Buddhists to ask the Buddhavistas (sp?) to intercede in life for them. They are people who are at the doorway of enlightenment but who have chosen to wait for their reward and remain as separate beings so that they can assist others on the path to enlightenment. However, they are clearly not gods, they are mortals. Or are you saying that since you ask a priest to help you pray that your priest is a god?
Anyway, a real Buddhist would probably have a lot of corrections of what I posted, but I think I got the gist right. I'm pretty sure a Buddhist would look at what you said and say "Grasshopper... never mind," and walk away.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 8:11:55 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
they are clearly not gods, they are mortals.

So were the pagan gods.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
I'm pretty sure a Buddhist would look at what you said and say "Grasshopper... never mind," and walk away.

Actually, the grasshopper - in particular the praying mantis - was one of the totem animals of a pagan god.

(in reply to SoftBonds)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 8:16:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The irony is that GotSteel is so very convinced of being right.

He may be convinced that he's right, but the illusion that he knows WHY is sure taking a beating.

K.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 8:56:15 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
OK, Buddha isn't in heaven, he achieved enlightenment and became one with Nirvana.

Belief that more people than just Siddhartha have achieved enlightenment is common in Buddhism. It's possible to believe in quite a few Buddhas.

Also Nirvana can get translated as heaven, heavens, heavenly paradise, etc.

(in reply to SoftBonds)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 9:19:04 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Prayer => God/gods

I pointed out where you fucked up that's not the same as making the above claim which would seem to me to exclude the various religions where one prays to their ancestors.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 9:33:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
OK, Buddha isn't in heaven, he achieved enlightenment and became one with Nirvana.

Belief that more people than just Siddhartha have achieved enlightenment is common in Buddhism. It's possible to believe in quite a few Buddhas.

Also Nirvana can get translated as heaven, heavens, heavenly paradise, etc.

Yes, in fact it is well regarded belief that several people have been subsumed into Nirvana. However the translation you are using is one only people who don't understand Buddhism would use. The fundamental concept is the annihilation of the self, which is so at odds with the Christian belief in eternal survival of the self that a lot of Christians mistranslated the concept of Nirvana. If you enter the state of Nirvana, you no longer exist as you, get it?
And if you no longer exist as you, no one can pray to you, since you don't exist.
Now you may have been confused by the fact that Hinduism decided to make Buddha a god. So some HINDU's pray to Buddha, but not Buddhists.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 9:56:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
In the most generic terms, prayer is a conversation between the ego and the self.

Well it looks to me like you're mixing terms from different models of cognition, so I'm pretty much having to guess what you're saying but we might actually be on the same-ish page in terms of what's actually happening when one communes with God/gods/spirits/kami/ancestors/aliens/higher beings/etc. via prayer.

Thing is I would consider operating under the realization that one is imagining an external being in order to facilitate an internal mental dialogue with themself to exclude said meditation exercise from being labeled as prayer.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 10:08:40 AM

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I am so proud of your break through, GS.

It is nice to see you admitting to meditating to your own ego... ie, praying. Bravo!

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(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 11:50:59 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
Yes, in fact it is well regarded belief that several people have been subsumed into Nirvana. However the translation you are using is one only people who don't understand Buddhism would use. The fundamental concept is the annihilation of the self, which is so at odds with the Christian belief in eternal survival of the self that a lot of Christians mistranslated the concept of Nirvana. If you enter the state of Nirvana, you no longer exist as you, get it?

Think about how widely the beliefs of Christians actually vary from any remotely reasonable interpretation of scripture let alone the views you would consider to fall under "people who understand Christianity". I'm not weighing in on what the correct interpretation is here, I'm talking about what I observed while living in Japan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
And if you no longer exist as you, no one can pray to you, since you don't exist.

Hence those aren't the kind of Buddhists that Kirata is describing as praying. Personally I'm not willing to exclude a large number of people who would check off the Buddhist box on a census from the label Buddhist, but that's me if you want to feel free. However, at that point our disagreement is just because we're using different labels and either way Kirata used a bad example.

(in reply to SoftBonds)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 12:35:46 PM

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I think a certain amount of introspection to get what we think we should want and what we actually find emotionally fulfilling on the same page is a good thing. Knowingly talking to an imaginary being as part of the process, so not my thing but whatever, different strokes for different folks.

However, I think problems eventually tend to show up when we believe that these beings really exist. Who believes in an impotent being or a lower power? We tend to get that we're fallible, we don't tend to get that about our gods. When people are under the impression that their preconceptions and intuitions are infallible it's understandable how that could cause problems isn't it?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 2/22/2012 1:19:31 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 1:40:00 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
However, I think problems eventually tend to show up when we believe that these beings really exist.

Are you talking about the Divine or about pagan gods such as Odin, Loki and Thor?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Who believes in an impotent being or a lower power?

What is a lower power?

As it happens, neither the Divine nor the pagan gods are omnipotent.

Now if you want a wart on your nose, that the Divine can deliver - provided that there is papilloma virus available and provided that you accept the opportunity presented.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
We tend to get that we're fallible, we don't tend to get that about our gods.

What an odd idea? Where did you obtain that misconception?

The Divine never acts on its own accord. Pagan gods on the other hand do, but some of them cannot tie their shoe laces.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
When people are under the impression that their preconceptions and intuitions are infallible it's understandable how that could cause problems isn't it?

It appears to me that you yourself are a prime example of someone who erroneously thinks himself infallible.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 2:35:46 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Prayer => God/gods

I pointed out where you fucked up that's not the same as making the above claim which would seem to me to exclude the various religions where one prays to their ancestors.

I suppose it might, but you're the one who made the claim. Own it or fold.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/22/2012 3:22:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

The fundamental concept is the annihilation of the self...

To speak about annihilation of the self plays a bit fast and loose with the concept of self. The most common metaphor is of a drop merging with the ocean. But it's the drop's identification with name and form, nama and rupa, it sense of its identity as a drop, round and separate, that fails to reflect its essential nature. When it merges with the ocean and realizes its true nature as water, it's not it's sense of self that's annihilated; its only the false sense of being a separate self, its identification with name and form, that falls away.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/22/2012 3:33:39 PM >

(in reply to SoftBonds)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/23/2012 5:33:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Prayer => God/gods

I pointed out where you fucked up that's not the same as making the above claim which would seem to me to exclude the various religions where one prays to their ancestors.

I suppose it might, but you're the one who made the claim. Own it or fold.
K.

Nope, you fucked up that's why you have to make up my position instead of quoting it. My motivation for pointing out your misunderstanding about Buddhism was not to and claim that prayer occurred solely within theism but because I don't want other meditation techniques to get conflated with prayer.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/23/2012 6:03:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Nope, you fucked up that's why you have to make up my position instead of quoting it. My motivation for pointing out your misunderstanding about Buddhism was not to and claim that prayer occurred solely within theism but because I don't want other meditation techniques to get conflated with prayer.

I did quote your position. I also (along with other posters) pointed out your ignorance of Buddhism.

That's a nice rabbit, though. Did it come with the top hat?

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/24/2012 7:11:55 AM

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The High Priest of Atheism, the Dawkins himself, is not absolutely sure God does not exist.
The philosopher Sir Anthony Kenny, who chaired the discussion, interjected: “Why don’t you call yourself an agnostic?” Prof Dawkins answered that he did.

An incredulous Sir Anthony replied: “You are described as the world’s most famous atheist.”

Prof Dawkins said that he was “6.9 out of seven” sure of his beliefs.

Hedging his bet?

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(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/24/2012 7:34:28 AM

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I think we should put together a list of all the things that scientists aren't absolutely sure don't exist. I've never once heard any scientist say that the universe isn't run by giant electric toothbrushes, for instance.

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RE: Think there is a god and what is your evidence? - 2/24/2012 7:53:54 AM

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You simply haven't been keeping up with the trade journals. A study by Colgate University provides evidence of.....(the margin is not large enough to contain it)

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