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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 7:30:26 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
That's why it's important. It establishes EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO ARREST ZIMMERMAN. Period. Full Stop. End of Story.


According to you...

The police determine cases of self-defense, not you. They don't arrest all individuals that use lethal self-defense because it would be a waste of time.

FACT.



Well, that's your OPINION. To make it a FACT you're going to have to show me the part of Florida's CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW that says you DO NOT CHARGE MANSLAUGHTER WHEN ALL THE FACTS ARE SUPPORTED. Because that's what every cop in the country is freaking out about in this case. The way the Sanford PD went out of their way to avoid doing standard procedure.

You're walking home from the candy store minding your own business.

You're being followed by a stranger, twice your weight, at night. They have no lawful authority to follow you.

You're concerned for your safety, since it's suspicious to follow-after, stalk, tail people going about their lawful business, like any reasonable and prudent person would be.

How close do you let a potential attacker, possibly armed and twice your size, get before you consider them a threat?


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/25/2012 7:41:46 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 441
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 7:33:34 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

FR

I dunno.. this guy was charged with assaulting a police officer.. seriously, how many people are stupid enough to do that??? Imo, this guy is a hothead and reacts without thinking about consequences at all..

Zimmerman had a gun on his person.. did he tell the kid he had a gun? cuz imo if I knew someone had a gun i would run, i would not confront the person or get into a fight with him.. I get the impression the kid didnt know Zimmerman was armed..


I think that even without KNOWING if Zimmerman was armed, he had reason to believe he might be.

An unknown person chasing or following them at night is all a reasonable and prudent person would need to be fearful for his safety.

If someone is stalking you, it's REASONABLE AND PRUDENT to assume they're armed.

How close do you let an armed attacker, twice your size, get before you consider them a threat?


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/25/2012 7:35:13 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 442
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 7:37:38 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

George Zimmerman was the only member of the Forever Alone Neighborhood Watch he founded all by himself.

There's no Neighborhood Watch there. It's just the cover story Zimmerman used to go peeping in other people's windows, and stalk and kill black kids like they're animals.


Do you have a link for that?


Aside from Zimmerman being the self-appointed "Captain" of a Neighborhood Watch which isn't registered with the National Sheriff's Association ( the governing body for NW programs )?

No.





All that tells me is the watch wasn't registered. It doesn't tell me that he was the only one in the group and it certainly doesn't tell me why he actually started the group. That part seems to have come from your own thoughts and since it's clear you have already tried and convicted him, why would I listen?

edited to add: When I first started reading this thread I was on the side of "hang the bastard". I think I even suggested he had injured himself to justify the shooting. After reading all the posts of those frothing at the mouth. I realize that was wrong.


It ALSO tells you that Zimmerman's ACTIONS of (1) leaving his car (2) ending his 9-1-1 call (3) being armed and (4) pursuing someone are ALL against EVERY LEGITIMATE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH POLICIES, and therefore he is unable to claim his acts as being part of N/W operations.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 443
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 7:39:43 AM   
provfivetine


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Joined: 2/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

So lets see a few things that might not be right.

If police determine a case is selfdefense then the police sort of becomes the judge and juror.
What if tray was alive in an ambulance and he had said it was selfdefense?
Police are unable to decide in that case.
Another thing wich strikes me as odd, cause we had a case where there was tempered evidence.
If the police decides not to investigate a crime scene, cause any self defense involves crime with the result of self defense.
So now they are left with a contaminated crime scene.
Possible clues about tray attackin zimmerman have not been investigated on the spot.
Besides the point of guilt, the greatest flaw is with the police department IMO.
And you know what they are like.
You cant really win a case against the police, its near to impossible.



I agree. All valid points for theoretical discussion, but irrelevant for practical purposes as it regards this case.

I will try to sum up this case as best as possible while avoiding emotions.

Zimmerman spots Martin.
Zimmerman calls the police and informs the police that Martin was acting with suspicion.
Zimmerman follows Martin.
Police advise Zimmerman to stand down (a non-legally binding order; what you THINK he SHOULD have done at this point is irrelevant).
Zimmerman follows Martin anyway.
Zimmerman *claims* Martin confronted him.
A struggle ensued.
John the witness *claims* to have seen Martin on top of Zimmerman.
John the witness *claims* to have heard a gunshot.
Martin is dead.
Zimmerman *claims* self-defense.
Paramedics and Police arrive on the scene where empirical evidence and witness testimony confirm Zimmeran's claims.

This is why Zimmerman wasn't arrested on the spot.

All of what I said is FACT.

There is no such thing as an objective historical or criminal scene reconstructive explanation, and it is impossible to know exactly what happened. Naturally, we cannot resurrect Martin to get his side of the story, so the testimonies of Zimmerman, John, the paramedics, and the police have to provide the reconstruction. For better or worse, all we can do is go by their word. Ad hoceries and normative statements can not come into play with legal recourse. People get emotional over this case and use grossly exaggerated inferences; many people play the "what if" the "he should have" and the "this could have happened" game - all irrelevant for practical purposes as it regards legal recourse.


(in reply to MrBukani)
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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 7:48:35 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Winning is NOT agression. If you jump me, I was not the agressor. If you end up a broken mess, I was still not the agressor, you were. (by the way, there's no such thing as a 'lacerated skull'.)


Martin is dead. He can't speak his side of the story. We will NEVER know exactly what happened. All we can go by is the witness report (as with any other criminal reconstruction case). "John" the witness stated that Martin was beating Zimmerman. Zimmerman reacted by using legal using self-defense. This is completely legal. You're letting emotions get the best of you.

There is no emotion to it. I am simply taking the witness statement at face value and not assuming what went on beforehand as you did.

The Sanford PD dropped the ball on this one big time.

They violated several of their own standard operating procedures.

Why didn't a homocide detective interview Zimmerman as per SOP?

Why wasn't Zimmerman detained for a Blood alcohol and drug test as per SOP?

Why wasn't the car impounded as per SOP?

Why wasn't the crime scene processed as per SOP?

Fact #1. We have a guy who is involved in a fatal shooting.
Fact #2 He has been arrested in the past for a felony.
Fact #3. He has been served a restraining order in the past for Domestic Violence.
Fact #4. With no witnesses to the shooting or what immediately led up to it, they let him walk in violation of department SOP without drug or alcohol testing.
Fact #5. His dad is a retired judge.

There are no emotions there., just facts and questions.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 445
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 7:51:51 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine

.
Paramedics and Police arrive on the scene where empirical evidence and witness testimony confirm Zimmeran's claims.

This is why Zimmerman wasn't arrested on the spot.


Witness testimony does NOT confirm Zimmerman's claims that he was not the agressor. You are ASSUMING that if someone is on top in a fight that he MUST have been the agressor. This is incorrect. You only have the story of one witness that gives a snapshot in time with no indication of what preceeded the actions.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 446
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 7:56:20 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Is that not the whole point of any case and jurisprudention?
Besides the fact I have my personal view on this, we cannot deny these kinda cases are very relevant to the future.
And the public outrage on racism might not be the best judge, but it does portray the sentiment of the people in general.

I think the only legacy we can take from this is to respect the real victim here.
Lots of people wanna change the SYG law now.
That is the last act Tray can be honored for.
The case as it is is a travesty by now anyway.
We live and learn and hope that we dont repeat the same mistakes.
That is what is so important about cases who go into grand publicity like this.
But I stand MY ground regarding who is guilty here.
Its a shame what guns do to people on either end of the trigger.

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 447
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 8:00:20 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

FR

I dunno.. this guy was charged with assaulting a police officer.. seriously, how many people are stupid enough to do that??? Imo, this guy is a hothead and reacts without thinking about consequences at all..

Zimmerman had a gun on his person.. did he tell the kid he had a gun? cuz imo if I knew someone had a gun i would run, i would not confront the person or get into a fight with him.. I get the impression the kid didnt know Zimmerman was armed..


I think that even without KNOWING if Zimmerman was armed, he had reason to believe he might be.

An unknown person chasing or following them at night is all a reasonable and prudent person would need to be fearful for his safety.

If someone is stalking you, it's REASONABLE AND PRUDENT to assume they're armed.

How close do you let an armed attacker, twice your size, get before you consider them a threat?

first off, i am a girl.. i will react and think differently than a young athletic guy...

I am also Canadian and still in that head space.. Canadians have gun control (pretty strict) and so someone being armed would not be a conclusion I would come to right off the bat (even tho I live here right now)..

But I do agree, being followed would freak me out.. and someone just walking in the same direction as me would have me on alert and I would take evasive action to see if they were indeed following me.. When that has happened to me in the past.. I would cross the street and start walking in the opposite direction, effectively making a U turn.. if the person does the same or not, then that tells you if you are being followed or not..

_____________________________

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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 8:01:55 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: provfivetine


I agree. All valid points for theoretical discussion, but irrelevant for practical purposes as it regards this case.

I will try to sum up this case as best as possible while avoiding emotions.

Zimmerman spots Martin.
Zimmerman calls the police and informs the police that Martin was acting with suspicion.
Zimmerman follows Martin.
Police advise Zimmerman to stand down (a non-legally binding order; what you THINK he SHOULD have done at this point is irrelevant).
Zimmerman follows Martin anyway.
Zimmerman *claims* Martin confronted him.
A struggle ensued.
John the witness *claims* to have seen Martin on top of Zimmerman.
John the witness *claims* to have heard a gunshot.
Martin is dead.
Zimmerman *claims* self-defense.
Paramedics and Police arrive on the scene where empirical evidence and witness testimony confirm Zimmeran's claims.

This is why Zimmerman wasn't arrested on the spot.

All of what I said is FACT.



"All of what I said is FACT."

LET US EXAMINE THIS CLAIM!


Zimmerman spots Martin. Ok, the 9-1-1 call confirms.

Zimmerman calls the police Ok, the 9-1-1 call confirms.

and informs the police that Martin was acting with suspicion. THIS IS NOT A FACT THIS IS YOUR OPINION!

What Zimmerman SAID was:
quote:


"This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about,"


And while *your opinion* might be "that's acting with suspicion", I'd ask "What's suspicious about walking home from the candy store in the rain?" Zimmerman doesn't articulate any FACTS leading to probable cause that Martin committed any crime.

Unless you agree with Zimmerman that being a black male is suspicion enough?

But to continue...

Zimmerman follows Martin. TRUE. We should note that this is not what a reasonable and prudent person would do in the same circumstances, however. AND We should note this violates EVERY RULE of a legitimate Neighborhood Watch, showing it to be a NEGLIGENT ACT.

Police advise Zimmerman to stand down 9-1-1 operator, not a cop, but TRUE. We should note that disobeying this advice is not what a reasonable and prudent person would do in the same circumstances, however. AND We should note this violates EVERY RULE of a legitimate Neighborhood Watch, showing it to be a NEGLIGENT ACT.


Zimmerman follows Martin anyway. TRUE. See above about negligence and violating N/W rules.

A struggle ensued. -- Possibly. The questions remains, given that Martin was justifiably threatened by being followed by night by a total stranger without any lawful authority, if Martin *initiated it* he would have a self-defense claim under 776.013(3), given he was the one being followed by an armed person, without any legal authority, WHILE Martin had EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to be where he way. But let's continue.

Martin is dead. (THIS IS THE FIRST REQUIREMENT FOR A MANSLAUGHTER CHARGE)

Zimmerman ADMITS killing Trayvon Martin. (THIS IS THE SECOND AND ONLY OTHER REQUIREMENT FOR A MANSLAUGHTER CHARGE) At this point, STANDARD POLICE PROCEDURE is to arrest the admitted killer, and hold for arraignment where pretrial motions can b made. JUST LIKE ON TV.

Zimmerman *claims* self-defense. This is IRRELEVANT, as the place to make a motion to dismiss for self-defense is during the arraignment for Manslaughter.

Paramedics and Police arrive on the scene where empirical evidence and witness testimony confirm Zimmeran's claims. THAT'S YOUR OPINION.

I'd say the empirical evidence that the paramedics collected show there's no way Zimmerman was ever at risk of Great Bodily Harm ( in the context of the Law -- It's something left to the JURORS to decide ) so that his self-defense claim is invalid on it's face. But let's just disregard that.

Because if -- it's proper as you're saying for the ESTABLISHED MANSLAUGHTER CHARGE to not be filed, then you can SHOW EVERYONE THE FLORIDA CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW ESTABLISHING THE PROCEDURE.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/25/2012 8:17:25 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to provfivetine)
Profile   Post #: 449
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 8:26:57 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		given that people are getting away with being armed, shooting and killing them, as in previous examples, including shooting someone in the back of the head.. is (imo) in great part why Zimmerman has not been arrested, oh and the fact that his daddy is a retired judge and likely has friends still in high places.. police likely feel they have to tread lightly..

"Since 2005, Florida has had more than 344 “justifiable murders” under their “Shoot First” law, according to theTampa Bay Times.
Here are three cases in which the “Shoot First” law exonerated defendants, as described by the South Florida Sun Sentinel:
In May 2010, a judge dismissed murder charges against two Tallahassee men accused of killing a teen, sparking outrage among state prosecutors, who have since called for the law to be repealed.
In May 2010, a Palm Beach County jury acquitted Timothy McTigue of second-degree murder in the death of Michael Palmer, 23. The two got into a fight in Riviera Beach and McTigue shot Palmer in the back of the head as Palmer got out of the water near a floating dock.
In 2007, a jury acquitted Norman Borden of murder when he shot and killed two men who threatened him as he walked his four dogs near his home in West Palm Beach. "
http://rippdemup.com/2012/03/floridas-shoot-first-law-how-george-zimmerman-claims-self-defense/

Imo, given this law.. Zimmerman will get away with this.. likely not even be charged or go to trial.. if it does go to trial he will, imo, be acquitted..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 3/25/2012 8:29:51 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 8:33:33 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		And people should note:

See the words "JUDGE", "JURY", and "JURY" in all those citations there. IF George Zimmerman has a claim of self-defense to make against the DOCUMENTED manslaughter charge, then the time to make it is in pretrial motions before the JUDGE. And if he doesn't believe your story, then you can explain it to the JURY.

And you know, if you get a Jury's approval, than people might still personally disagree, but we KNOW we did everything right to get the best answers we could. And Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman both deserve the best answers we can find.

Of course, Zimmerman's terrified of all that, because a Judge is going to not be all 'knee-jerk-reaction' about this and it's going to come down the the 'reasonable and prudent' standard determining who gets 776.013(3) protection for any acts, which we've all seen he can't meet. He fucked up TWICE by just getting out of his car. A third time by pursuing Martin. So, it's 3 fuck-ups for Zimmerman, and none for Martin. Pretty straightforward. Pretrial motion for dismissal denied and hold for trial. Let a fucking jury sort this shit out.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/25/2012 8:35:41 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 451
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 8:50:52 AM   
meesekite


Posts: 53
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I hope Zimmerman is not charged with a crime merely because allot of people wish him to be so. THAT would be an affront to justice, indeed. I can understand why Zimmerman acted as he did; he saw a suspicious person, tried to follow said suspicious person and then that person attacked him inflicting injuries that were not minor. Zimmerman sustained a broken nose and some lacerations needing stitches. Zimmermans 911 call said the kid looked high, (I would love to know how and why he felt the boy looked high...what specific behaviors he believed the young man was showing), and that he was reaching in his waistband...I think therefore Zimmerman believed the young man had a gun. Its simply not a race event every and any time a white man shoots a black one.

As for what he was wearing...hoodies are worn by criminals; they do obscure the face and I can understand how a young man wearing one who is looking in peoples homes, as he was reported to be, could be mistaken for a criminal. I can see Geraldo's point there. Clothes do make impressions on others, that fact is unavoidable. That is why we dress nicely for job interviews. A woman wearing a hijab or a burka is most likely a Muslim lady. A man wearing a yarmulke is most likely a Jewish man. A young man in a hoodie wandering about the neighborhood in the dark, not on the streets but on peoples lawns... could easily be mistaken for his criminal counterparts who have that as their "uniform".

Could things have been done differently? YES.
Zimmerman could have asked "Young man, who are you? Im with the neighborhood watch".
Zimmerman also could have NOT pursued him...but he choose to, and the wording of the 911 operator was ambiguous there. A fix would be to ensure clarity on the part of 911 dispatchers in the future. DONT follow the guy. DO follow the guy. NOT a "you dont need to"
Martin could have asked "Who are you man and why are you following me" instead of just attacking him, thereby collaborating Zimmermans belief that this person was a danger.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 452
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:02:41 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		I wear a hoodie.. joggers wear hoodies.. sheesh.. i never thought I looked like a criminal cuz of wearing a hoodie..

If it had been me,.. I would have seen Martin on his cell phone, with his bag of stuff from the store and thought nothing of the kid.. just a normal kid going home or whatever.. that sight never would have made me think he was a potential criminal..

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As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 453
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:04:05 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		A broken nose?

Really?

Looking at his mug shot......there`s no broken nose......not even a scratch.

Are you and Kirata getting your "facts" from the same places?

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 454
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:07:17 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Are you and Kirata getting your "facts" from the same places?

I'm still waiting for you back up your claims from the other thread. You doubling down now?

K.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 455
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:07:37 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
A broken nose?

Really?

Looking at his mug shot......there`s no broken nose......not even a scratch.

Are you and Kirata getting your "facts" from the same places?

that could have been one of his previous mug shots tho, couldnt it? especially since he has not been charged, who is to say he was even taken to the cop shop this time for a photo..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 456
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:08:07 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Yawn.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 457
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:13:04 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yawn.....

Unh huh. I accept your apology. Next time, have the cards before you bet.

K.

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 458
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:13:08 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		I noticed 3 things from the 911 call.
A very cold apathic voice of george.
He answered the advise to not follow with an equally cold ok.
And George said these assholes always get away.

Wich kinda means he already judged Martin before he was sure there was anything wrong.
Puttin together the face and that voice does something to me.
He seems like a scary coldhearted person.
Since the former poster allows us to judge on appearance I thought to return the favor.

BTW an odd comparison maybe, but do you remember Natalee Holloway and Joram van der Sloot. His father was also a judge.
He is in jail now in Peru. His father died very young of a heartattack a couple of years ago.

And another thought to ponder on because of Zimmermans criminal record, could he ever have applied again for police school?
You can kinda tell where this train of thoughts is going.

(in reply to meesekite)
Profile   Post #: 459
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/25/2012 9:21:43 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Since the former poster allows us to judge on appearance I thought to return the favor.

Fucking excuse me?

The point of comparing the photos the media are using is that people do form impressions on the basis of appearance.

Sheeesh.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/25/2012 9:23:31 AM >

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 460
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