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RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 1:50:40 AM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		First off, it seems that the DOJ and the FBI have opened seperate investigations into this issue (SOURCE). They are investigating both the events that took place and EVERY person involved. That would include all the police officers! I think this has as much to do with the outcry from the populous as it does preventing say, another 'Rodney King' issue. Try to imagine the riots that broke out after thsoe officers were found innocent in that trial? Now imagine it happening in Florida with their 'stand your ground' self defense laws. Can you say 'massive blood bath'? I know you can!

Now, I keep getting a chuckle with DarqueMirror's contiuined arguements. They are lame, and if the issue wasnt so tragedic, it would be laughable....

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You claim a distinction between following and pursuing. If you are pursuing someone, are you not also following? It's kinda hard to pursue and NOT follow. That is truly funny logic. "Well officer, I pursued him by NOT following him"

You can't pursue without following, but you can follow without pursuing. This really isn't rocket science. Cops do it all the time when conditions are too dangerous to initiate a pursuit. They follow the suspect at a safe distance until conditions are more conducive to a full pursuit. Hell I've followed friends from one place to another when we were taking two cars. Doesn't mean I was pursuing them, just following.


Lets start with the defination of Pursuing, DM:

quote:


1. to follow in order to overtake, capture, kill, etc.; chase.

2. to follow close upon; go with; attend: Bad luck pursued him.

3. to strive to gain; seek to attain or accomplish (an end, object, purpose, etc.).

4. to proceed in accordance with (a method, plan, etc.).

5. to carry on or continue (a course of action, a train of thought, an inquiry, studies, etc.).


Now, I want you to look at those first two definations to the word 'pursuing'. I highlighted one of those words in red. Can you understand that? And what is the Synonym for 'Following', DM? Why....Pursue! If you are FOLLOWING someone, you are PURSUING them. if your are PURSUING someone, you are FOLLOWING them. I know that is a bit tough for you to understand...

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
As for initiating a confrontation. the confrontation was initiated when Zimmerman got out of the car and approached.

Nope. It wasn't. You don't know how close he was to Martin to justify that assumption. I've gotten out of my car thousands of times without initiating a confrontation. The simple act of exiting a vehicle does not automatically initiate a confrontation.


Why dont you tell all of us exactly how close both of them were to each other, when the confrontation took place? Since...IF... Mr. Martin initiated it, that would imply Mr. Zimmerman was STILL IN HIS CAR. Mr. Zimmerman never said this was part of the chain of events. Otherwise, Mr. Zimmerman might have used his firearm from the safety of his car, and state he was being car-jacked. Since this has not come up, it would be logical to assume, given the evidence, that Mr. Martin did not approach Mr. Zimmerman. Since Mr. Zimmerman stated a confrontration took place, the only OTHER likely candidate in this issue, would be Mr. Zimmerman himself.



(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 2:23:17 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news…

Sheriff's Office releases more 911 calls made by George Zimmerman

The neighborhood crime watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin last month, called 911 dozens of times in the months that led to the fatal shooting.

This afternoon six of the calls made by George Zimmerman were released by theSeminole County Sheriff's Office.

In four of the recordings Zimmerman called police to report "suspicious" persons — all of whom were black — in or near the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood.

He called once to report his neighbor's open garage door. And in the sixth call, Zimmerman reports children are "habitually" playing in the street at dusk and running in front of cars. He asked dispatchers to take his complaint anonymously, but provided his name and phone number.

None of the newly released calls are related to the Feb. 26 shooting inside the gated neighborhood.

Many of the calls start the same way — Zimmerman mentions the recent rash of burglaries in the area and identifies himself as a member of the neighborhood watch.

"We've had a lot of break-ins in our neighborhood recently and I'm on the neighborhood watch," Zimmerman said during one call.

"There's two suspicious characters at the gate of my neighborhood, I've never seen them before. I don't know what they are doing. They are hanging out…loitering."

That day, the "characters" are two black men in a white sedan, Zimmerman tells the dispatchers. An officer is sent to check out the call, but it's unclear if anything suspicious was uncovered.

Another time he calls two report two black teens who match the description of suspects in recent break-in, who his wife saw and identified for police.
.

_____________________________

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(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 4:53:16 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Its not that the cops think this guy is "innocent",rather their hands are tied by an ill advised law.


The "Stand Your Ground" law doesn't cover people committing felonies.

I would think that a great case for felony charges can be made from stalking, hunting, and killing another person as if they were an escaped slave or animal.

So, all the cops needed to do was say, "Hmm... You initiated the attack, since hunting him down like an animal is a voluntary choice you made, so we're arresting you for felony assault with a firearm. POOF. No more self-defense, tell your story to a jury, asshole."

Easy peasy...

Sanford PD are shitting in their pants right now. Historically, they've been in trouble as recently as LAST YEAR for not pressing charges against a race beating. So there's a PATTERN OF CIVIL RIGHTS ABUSES to investigate. And the DOJ and FBI are going to investigate with enthusiasm. The only real question is "Which of Sanford's Finest is going to turn snitch first?"

It's a election year. And these guys are Bad Cops. And the Internet knows about them. They're fucked.

Oh, and Zimmerman. Now that the FBI are involved, and since Zimmerman stalked and hunted this kid down, I can imagine the FBI getting all worked up about the racially motivated kidnapping at gunpoint and execution of the kid.

Kidnapping at gunpoint. There goes the 'self-defense' claim! Of course, there is no 'stand-your-ground' law in the federal codes.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/20/2012 4:59:53 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 5:16:12 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		It's kinda funny how one poster keeps referring to "The football player". Oh My God!! it's a big bad football player.

If you had read the appropritate articles, you would know that he played Optimist Football, not HS football. That means he was too small, slow, skinny or weak for his high school team.

If you look in the pictures, you can clearly see he is wearing a "Wolverines" jersey. The Dr Kropp mascot is the "Lightning" I taught and coached in Dade county and there is no "Wolverines" mascot at any high school down there in case someone might be thinking he transferred.

Dr Kropp HS is also a magnet school. This means they select their students from a pool of applicants. They are selective.

http://www.sfyfl.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=67&Itemid=102 Here's his team.


Get the guns out Bessie. Them ravagin Pop Warner football players are coming.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 5:18:07 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		FR,

Not sure if there is anything new here: http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/what-happened-trayvon-martin-explained

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 5:39:53 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I watched an hour-long "put-the-latino-in-jail" piece on this, last night and the long and short of it is: So far, neither the cops nor the prosecutor sees a crime having been committed here.

I'm not sure I agree with that but, the piece I saw was very "weighted" against this watch guy. So, I won't take it as gospel, either.

While I said in my first post on this subject that he left the car, etc. I'm not sure that he wasn't within his rights to leave the car. Certainly, any citizen has any right to walk down any street.

That he was "tailing" the younger man is where I have question. Was it Zimmerman's responsibility to follow Trayvon? I don't know. This would require a deep look at Florida law (and I can't be asked, right now) and at whatever "charter" the watch group may be operating under.

What I am fairly sure of is; at some point Trayvon seemed to have the advantage in the physical altercation (based upon most eyewitness accounts). I'm willing to accept that as truth. I still don't know if that makes Zimmerman innocent but it does suggest that he might have feared for his safety.

This is a horrible tragedy that, no matter how it's resolved will eventually cause a tear in a community and leave a hole in the hearts of many that it affects.

My heart goes out to both families.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/20/2012 5:45:02 AM >

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(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 5:43:13 AM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel
Wow Darque, you are afraid of men running in dark parking lots?? You'd better not come to my neighborhood, then. We have a saying around here--"Once you show fear, you become a victim". The trick is to never show fear, but to keep an eye out.

Years ago, I used to walk these streets at 2-3 in the morning, after getting off work several blocks away and no bus service that time of night. I was accosted more often AT work than on my way home FROM work.


Try and keep up. As I said pages ago, I wasn't afraid of the guy but did feel the need to take a defensive stance. Let's see a crackhead-esque guy run up to you from across a dark parking lot and see what you do in response.



I was attacked recently on the job, got a black eye from a 6'3" young man who became psychotic. I did not hit back but nor did I back down. I handled it. Talked to him in a calm but firm voice as I pick up my phone and placed myself between him and the front door. Oddly enough, punching me in the face was enough to calm him and I didn't have to rush out of there. I had more trouble keeping his roommates calm while I called the police. People who work with the mentally ill as I do are taught what to do to stay safe and how to diffuse a situation. Carrying a gun is not one of the things done. Nor is showing fear. Show fear toward a psychotic person and you've lost all credibility.



(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 6:51:20 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Stalking someone to murder them is a crime. And I don't see any evidence to contradict that story, do you?

Don't worry. The Feds are now on the trail of a whole lot of Bad Cops...

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/20/2012 6:52:43 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 8:11:03 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
~FR~

Here's the latest, a friend of Martin's recounting their cell phone conversation as he was being followed:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-16-year-old-girl-recalls-phone-conversation-minutes-martin-shot-dead-report-article-1.1047445

Recounting her conversation with Martin, the teen girl said, "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man." "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run," she said.

After a few minutes, the girl said, Martin thought he was safe. But eventually the man appeared again.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for?'" the girl said. "And the man said, 'What are you doing here?' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the [phone’s\] headset just fell."

The line went dead, the girl said.

"I called him again and he didn't answer the phone," she said.

Ruhro ...

Not looking good for Zimmerman.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/20/2012 8:12:56 AM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 9:32:45 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The more that comes out, the more it looks like George Zimmerman planned to commit this murder. Just like you would plan going out during deer season.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 10:38:45 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		NPR had good coverage this AM which included tapes of other 911 caller's. This may be it: http://www.npr.org/2012/03/20/148993451/was-trayvon-martin-targeted-for-being-black

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 10:45:21 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I saw that NPR story last night.  The tapes are pretty shocking.
I can certainly understand why the police are being careful about this one, but it seems they have abdicated their responsibility to the prosecutor's office.  Hopefully, that office will recommend an arrest soon.  This guy is a lunatic.
Florida certainly has an odd law regarding self defense.  The NPR story gave an example of two drug dealers in a shoot out.  DD1 shoots first.  DD2 shoots second, and hits an innocent bystander and kills him.  DD1 didn't shoot him.  DD2 has a valid defense, since he was in reasonable fear of his life.
Makes me glad I live in a state that follows the castle doctrine.


< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 3/20/2012 10:48:35 AM >

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 11:45:54 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Not looking good for Zimmerman.


No it's not and I don't mind that a bit. Every time I see a pic of the kid, it makes me want to cry.

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 2:27:35 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		I did cry during the tape of the woman calling 911 when Trayvon was screaming in the background right before Zimmerman shot him.

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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 2:39:21 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		FR

Here is the ultimate thing. Mr. Vigilante Justice Zimmerman is now hiding behind the cops and the DA to protect himself. Ironically, if Mr. Martin's relatives and friends got together to mete out their own vigilante justice against Mr. Zimmerman, they would be put behind bars in an instant.

Where are any reports of Mr. Zimmerman feeling any remorse at all for what he has done? Something that he did not have the right to do (take someone's life for NO reason). He is not even sorry for what he has done, because he feels justified in chasing someone down, initiating an altercation, and then when the altercation goes bad, shooting Mr. Martin. I will say it again. This man is dangerous to the public at large.

_____________________________

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(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 3:36:14 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The Germans have a phrase for it:

Bullen scheißen selbst spielt das Gefangenendilemma ..

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 5:30:19 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I did cry during the tape of the woman calling 911 when Trayvon was screaming in the background right before Zimmerman shot him.


As I mentioned earlier in the thread; none of us here are qualified in the field of audio forensics, as my background in conventional audio tells me. We have no idea who was yelling what, except that I'm half-certain I heard two different voices at various times. The forensic analysis will sort all that out.

I could not listen anymore after the second time through (live murder not being my cuppa) and I was listening for many things that others were not, so I didn't focus on that last voice in particular, but I'm done with it in any case.

We have now coming to light unique firsthand testimony of the moments just before and possibly at the onset of confrontation and physical response and engagement.

The more I read, the more that emerges, the less essential it is to be judgmental or emotional about it.

The plain facts as they stand thus far are looking pretty good to me right now, especially those as being progressively in the hands of people beyond the Sanford Police.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/20/2012 5:36:54 PM >

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 7:01:05 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Here's an excerpt from an NRA-Certified Concealed Carry Instructor's website.



■You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If they’re stealing a hubcap they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You cannot use deadly force to make a citizen’s arrest, or to stop a fleeing criminal. If they’re fleeing they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You’re responsible for all of the shots you fire, including misses that hit innocent bystanders. Use aimed fire. “Spray and pray” is a bad idea.


He was initially protecting property and pursuing what he thought was a fleeing criminal.

_____________________________

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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 8:57:30 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Here's an excerpt from an NRA-Certified Concealed Carry Instructor's website.



■You cannot use deadly force to protect property. If they’re stealing a hubcap they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You cannot use deadly force to make a citizen’s arrest, or to stop a fleeing criminal. If they’re fleeing they’re not a threat to life or limb.
■You’re responsible for all of the shots you fire, including misses that hit innocent bystanders. Use aimed fire. “Spray and pray” is a bad idea.


He was initially protecting property and pursuing what he thought was a fleeing criminal.


But did he draw before, or after fisticuffs started? If his gun remained concealed up to the time Martin started to get the better of him, then he has a self defense case, despite the fact he instigated the altercation in the first place. That's whats wrong with the law as written.

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: He was armed with skittles and ice tea... - 3/20/2012 9:33:46 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
He was initially protecting property and pursuing what he thought was a fleeing criminal.


HORSESHIT!

In Zimmerman's OWN WORDS...

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining, and he’s just walking around, looking about.

NOTHING about breaking and entering, nothing about a fleeing criminal.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 160
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