RE: Another example of the "war" (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/17/2012 10:25:49 PM)

Georgia law states for a spontaneous abortion ...

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1500247/Georgia-State-Laws-on-Abortion

Unless this is not accurate anymore.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/17/2012 10:29:38 PM)

But what can they mean by spontaneous abortion other than that the fetus is already dead?



tazzygirl -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/17/2012 10:51:05 PM)

The definitions vary... it can mean many things. 



So, if they meant fetal death, why say spontaneous abortion?  
(1) 'Abortion' means the intentional termination of human pregnancy with an intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus; provided, however, that if a physician makes a medically justified effort to save the lives of both the mother and the fetus and the fetus does not survive, such action shall not be an abortion. Such term does not include a naturally occurring expulsion of a fetus known medically as a 'spontaneous abortion' and popularly as a 'miscarriage' so long as there is no human involvement whatsoever in the causation of such event.
http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2007_08/search/hb1.htm

Here they defined a spontaneous abortion as a natural expulsion.  Which is not what we are discussing.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/17/2012 11:33:32 PM)

That is not the definition embodied in their code. I looked it up on Westlaw, but my IPad won't let me copy it. What you are looking at is a bill. Doesn't look like it passed as written.
http://www.health.state.ga.us/wrtk/faq.asp



tazzygirl -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 2:20:27 AM)

That gives the same as I posted to you above in post #41.

Fetal death (spontaneous abortion or stillbirth) certificates are completed by hospital staff and certifying physicians

http://www.georgiagenealogy.org/vital_records.htm

Spontaneous abortion is the expulsion of an embryo or fetus due to accidental trauma or natural causes. Most miscarriages are due to incorrect replication of chromosomes; they can also be caused by environmental factors. Spontaneous abortions, generally referred to as miscarriages, occur when an embryo or fetus is lost due to natural causes before the 20th week of gestation. A pregnancy that ends between 20 and 37 weeks of gestation, if it results in a live-born infant, is known as a "premature birth". When a fetus dies in utero after about 20 weeks, or during delivery, it is termed a "stillbirth". Premature births and stillbirths are generally not considered to be miscarriages although usage of these terms can sometimes overlap.

quote:

Spontaneous abortion refers to pregnancy loss at less than 20 weeks’ gestation in the absence of elective medical or surgical measures to terminate the pregnancy. The term “miscarriage” is synonymous and often is used with patients because the word “abortion” is associated with elective termination. “Spontaneous pregnancy loss” has been recommended to avoid the term “abortion” and acknowledge the emotional aspects of losing a pregnancy.1 Another emotionally neutral term is “early pregnancy failure.”2


http://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/1001/p1243.html

quote:

A miscarriage is the spontaneous loss of a fetus before the 20th week of pregnancy. (Pregnancy losses after the 20th week are called preterm deliveries.)


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002458/

So, you tell me... which do they mean? Is it still a spontaneous abortion if the fetal demise occurs in the 5th month of pregnancy?

Thats my problem with this bill... it does not stipulate what a spontaneous abortion is. The terminology is to vague and open to different interpretations.



GrandPoobah -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 2:29:36 AM)

The simple answer to all of the "unknowns" and "questionable definitions" and "but what about..." is this. Get the government the hell out of the Uterus! It really is that simple. If it ain't yours, leave it alone. I think that's covered in Commandment #10, which goes like this:

thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Since it's not yours, leave it alone...even if you think she's really hot!



erieangel -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 2:45:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah

The simple answer to all of the "unknowns" and "questionable definitions" and "but what about..." is this. Get the government the hell out of the Uterus! It really is that simple. If it ain't yours, leave it alone. I think that's covered in Commandment #10, which goes like this:

thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Since it's not yours, leave it alone...even if you think she's really hot!



Tell that to Ricky, Corbett, all these right wing state governments and all their blind followers.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 3:59:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah

The simple answer to all of the "unknowns" and "questionable definitions" and "but what about..." is this. Get the government the hell out of the Uterus! It really is that simple. If it ain't yours, leave it alone.



It's kind of tough for someone to say (with a straight face): "Get out of my Uterus!" While they're reaching into someone else's chest for their soul.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



hlen5 -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 7:32:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandPoobah

..........Get the government the hell out of the Uterus! It really is that simple. If it ain't yours, leave it alone.....................

Since it's not yours, leave it alone...even if you think she's really hot!


I nominate this for Sunny's Quote of the Day!!!!



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 7:35:40 AM)

Tazzy, what can I tell you? After reading the Georgia statute, I am pretty convinced that the intent and the practicality is that it does not prohibit removal of a fetus that has died naturally. Those two definitions are not the same.
I am certainly not defending the law, I believe it it unconstitutional and morally appalling. But claiming it does something that it doesn't is only going to hurt the cause f the opponents of the law.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 7:42:25 AM)

No, it really isn't. Actually, I don't see how anyone could make the statement below with a straight face. Superstitious nonsense.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr



It's kind of tough for someone to say (with a straight face): "Get out of my Uterus!" While they're reaching into someone else's chest for their soul.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



hlen5 -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 7:44:37 AM)

Iamsemisweet - have you had that sig line very long? It's perfect for P and R!!



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 7:48:31 AM)

Thanks hlen5. A couple of months, and I thought so too.



tazzygirl -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 8:03:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Tazzy, what can I tell you? After reading the Georgia statute, I am pretty convinced that the intent and the practicality is that it does not prohibit removal of a fetus that has died naturally. Those two definitions are not the same.
I am certainly not defending the law, I believe it it unconstitutional and morally appalling. But claiming it does something that it doesn't is only going to hurt the cause f the opponents of the law.


And I dont know what to tell you other than to see it how others do as well.  Intent is all well good and fine.  In the political environment we have now, I dont want good intentions.  I want it spelled out.  Intent is what I heard in the video... not what I read on line.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 8:10:28 AM)

Legislative intent is one of the canons courts use in interpreting legislation. That video you showed may be that guy's intent for whatever version of the bill he was supporting. Doesn't mean it was the intent of the Georgia legislature. In fact, I think when the law is read as a whole, it is pretty clear that it is not their intent to preclude removal of a dead fetus.



tazzygirl -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 8:15:14 AM)

Language, in law, is everything.  Medically it is not saying what you say it is saying legally.  This one has a (loop) hole big enough to drive a mac truck through.



Iamsemisweet -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 8:17:23 AM)

It will be interesting to see what happens when it gets challenged, since it clearly violate Roe v. Wade.



tazzygirl -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 8:27:01 AM)

That is the whole intent behind all these bills.  The plan is to batter against Roe vs Wade until it is toppled by something... anything.  Tiny chinks against a dam comes to mind.  Eventually, the dam gives way. At least in theory.



Lucylastic -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 9:32:34 AM)

Its one hell of a slippery slope, and we both have been talking about this since 2010..weve been poo pooed and accused of fear mongering by more than a few. this is just the start if they get their way and are not challenged.
That this is happening in the 21st century is an abomination



tazzygirl -> RE: Another example of the "war" (3/18/2012 9:49:35 AM)

I see it the way you do Lucy.  For a few years now, we have been complaining about the treatment of women.  Only to be told we were too "emotional".

I am emotional.  I am pissed that men are making the decisions for me... that they can decide what I can do with my body, that any decision I may make is dismissed.... unless its to vote them into office again.

And I see it here.  "This is not what the bill means"

Medically, I know what it says, I know the implications, and I see the slippery slope to abuse.  If the political climate were different, I might agree and believe I was worrying too much.  But, I wont be silenced, I wont be told I am making something out of nothing.

And, while I understand the reason behind the following...

quote:

But claiming it does something that it doesn't is only going to hurt the cause f the opponents of the law.


That pisses me off too.  Because that is the prevailing thought.

Be a good woman and dont push too hard, you might make things worse off

How much worse does it have to get before women realize this is a war against us..... that does not include us?



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