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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/18/2012 4:28:41 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Obviously it was done to avoid embarassment in the Church, and there can be no excuse for what he did but in my opinion he redeemed himself by taking the issue very seriously subsequently, and at a time when few others in the Church were.

Redeem himself, how? Has he fixed all the lives he destroyed? Has he restored to life those children who killed themselves because they were unable to live with the tortures his actions subjected them to?

Finally doing his fucking job doesn't redeem him, what a joke. The only thing I can think of that would even come close is if he were to go get himself a nice strong rope.

Ratzinger redeemed himself by going out of his way to challenge Church policy, and take on very powerful figures in the Church over the issue. This was at a time when it was very hard to do so. It could have easily destroyed his standing in the Church. Thus he went over and above doing his job within the Church, which by the way was not actually about child protection issues. If anyone was familiar with the extreme secrecy of the Church over this matter for decades if not centuries, they would appreciate what he had done. It does not excuse the past but he made a massive difference. Thus its wrong to call him the "Pedo-Pope".

_____________________________

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/18/2012 4:39:13 AM   
farglebargle


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Ratzinger was the one who told everyone NOT TO COOPERATE with the Irish authorities, right?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/18/2012 4:43:32 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Ratzinger was the one who told everyone NOT TO COOPERATE with the Irish authorities, right?

I don't believe so - that related to a document in 1998, if I recall correctly. There has been subsequent controversy between Ireland and the Catholic Church which led the PM to slam the Vatican last year but that was at least as much about the continued failings of the regional Church hierarchy here to properly impliment agreed child protection policy.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/18/2012 6:55:13 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
The difference between an embryo and a single celled organism is that a single celled organism is encoded to remain a single celled organism forever, it will always be so.

From that one should be able to glean the purpose of an embryo. 


Yes, obviously the zygote has the potential (if given a huge amount of resources by the mother and if everything goes just so) to eventually become a human being. But unless you're about to start singing every sperm is sacred, we should be able to agree that a human being is different from a single cell that has some potential to become a human being.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/18/2012 8:08:43 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
What makes Humans special?


Humans are special because I'm a human.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 2:13:04 AM   
farglebargle


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Yeah, well, that "Special Little Snowflake" attitude doesn't cut it.

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 5:35:35 AM   
LizDeluxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Do only anti-choice proponents have a "right" to pray?


No. The anti-life zealots have every right to pray as they wish.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 5:48:02 AM   
dcnovice


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quote:

No. The anti-life zealots have every right to pray as they wish.


Well, that's big of you, Liz. Thanks.

I take it you're "pro-life," striving mightily to ensure that all children have adequate food and healthcare and toiling for the abolition of the death penalty.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 6:24:15 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Yeah, well, that "Special Little Snowflake" attitude doesn't cut it.


As I tried to explain to Kirata for quite a while before giving up, snark doesn't actually constitute a valid rebuttal.

Picking the well being of humans as a basis for morality could be considered entirely subjective if it wasn't for the reality that we're humans.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 8:39:48 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

No. The anti-life zealots have every right to pray as they wish.


Well, that's big of you, Liz. Thanks.

I take it you're "pro-life," striving mightily to ensure that all children have adequate food and healthcare and toiling for the abolition of the death penalty.


Heck with that. If people are "Pro-Life", I want to know WHAT THEY EAT?

Can't eat meat, vegetables, fish, and every apple you eat aborts a tree...



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 8:41:41 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Yeah, well, that "Special Little Snowflake" attitude doesn't cut it.


As I tried to explain to Kirata for quite a while before giving up, snark doesn't actually constitute a valid rebuttal.

Picking the well being of humans as a basis for morality could be considered entirely subjective if it wasn't for the reality that we're humans.



Well, unless the gestating fetus is YOURS, then 'the well being of humans' == 'The Well Being of the Mother'.

Everything else is between her and her physician.

Unless someone is suggesting that SOMEONE ELSE has an owenership interest in the mother's creation?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 10:33:56 AM   
DaddySatyr


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Well, as I look at this little list of daily prayers, I find a couple of faults:

quote:

OP

"In no way is it a mockery of anything because we take prayer very seriously," Turner said Friday. "And I take women's concerns very seriously. These prayers, all of them, are very specific to women and not all of them are about abortion. In fact, very few of them are."



Now, hold on a minute, there, Sparky.

17 of the forty prayers (nearly half) have the word "abortion" in them.

The word "choice" has become synonymous with abortion in the parameters of the this particular discussion (the word was even chosen by pro-abortionists). That word only appears once but it brings our count of the word "abortion" up to 18.

I also noticed a new twist on the "choice" word. The new directive seems to be "decisions". If this is to become the new "codeword" for "abortion" (replacing "choice"), then there are several more (4)passive mentions of abortion. This brings our grand total up to 22 references to abortion.

Mr. Turner (the "Sparky" to whom I refered, earlier) clearly is trying to spin and I'm sure that's his job but the statement that hardly any of these are about abortion doesn't even pass the giggle test.

Some of the wording is even a bit misleading. Surely, No one who is truly "pro life" would be involved in murdering an abortionist or physically assaulting a young lady on her way into a clinic but, if the people that wrote these prayers think that pro-lifers, yelling things at women (they're required to stand at some distance from the clinic so, their voices must be raised), who are on their way to have the life inside them ripped limb from limb is "hostile", then they truly have uniquely perverted way of defining "hostile" (while praying to deny pro-lifers their first amendment rights).

I can see why religious people would have an issue with these prayers being worded the way they are and the thinly veiled attempt at mocking the "other 40 days of prayer".

There are a few prayers in this list which I, myself, pray on a daily basis and by loading the list up with insulting bullshit, these people are shooting themselves in the foot.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 4/19/2012 10:36:35 AM >


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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 7:32:06 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Well, unless the gestating fetus is YOURS, then 'the well being of humans' == 'The Well Being of the Mother'.

Everything else is between her and her physician.

Unless someone is suggesting that SOMEONE ELSE has an owenership interest in the mother's creation?


I've got to say I'm at a loss to see how your response relates in any way to my statement.

Also how would the gestating fetus being "YOURS" effect it's human-ness in any way?

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 4/19/2012 7:48:15 PM >

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 8:09:39 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Ratzinger was the one who told everyone NOT TO COOPERATE with the Irish authorities, right?


Well the Pedo-Pope did send such a message to every bishop on the planet, so yes. However, if you're referring to the letter where a Vatican official threatened Irish Bishops to get them to stop reporting these crimes, then no. That was done by Archbishop Luciano Storero on behalf of the Congregation for Clergy.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/19/2012 8:23:04 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Ratzinger was the one who told everyone NOT TO COOPERATE with the Irish authorities, right?

Well the Pedo-Pope did send such a message to every bishop on the planet, so yes. However, if you're referring to the letter where a Vatican official threatened Irish Bishops to get them to stop reporting these crimes, then no. That was done by Archbishop Luciano Storero on behalf of the Congregation for Clergy.

When did the "Pedo-Pope" do that as I'd like to look it up?

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/20/2012 12:07:05 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

When did the "Pedo-Pope" do that as I'd like to look it up?

I have to say that I'm somewhat mystified as to what sort of injury would allow you to type here, but not at Google. However, that's not really any of my business and it sounds likely to be embarrassing. So without further ado...

    Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret

    The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

    It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger...

    Ratzinger's letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been 'perpetrated with a minor by a cleric'...

    'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes
This is, of course, perfectly in accord with the Vatican's policy as previously set forth in 1962:
    Vatican told bishops to cover up sex abuse

    The Vatican instructed Catholic bishops around the world to cover up cases of sexual abuse or risk being thrown out of the Church...

    The 69-page Latin document bearing the seal of Pope John XXIII was sent to every bishop in the world. The instructions outline a policy of 'strictest' secrecy in dealing with allegations of sexual abuse and threatens those who speak out with excommunication...

    Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases 'in the most secretive way... restrained by a perpetual silence... and everyone... is to observe the strictest secret which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office... under the penalty of excommunication'.
There ya go. You're welcome, glad to help. Feel better soon.

K.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/20/2012 3:43:55 AM   
Anaxagoras


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FR: fantasies about my health notwithstanding, I do hope the Floridian feels better after the above statement. For anyone that might take a mystifying interest at my request, there is a great deal of material about the subject online so I merely asked a rough time frame such as a year to filter out the ole Google. Surely not a major or unprecedented request?

There has also been a number of claims in the media that don't appear to afford him a fair hearing, for example http://www.nairaland.com/431442/cardinal-ratzinger-b16-did-more

quote:

On March 24, 2010, a report by the New York Times cited the Fr. Murphy case to accuse Pope Benedict XVI of a cover-up while he was head of the CDF in 1996.[163]

However Father Thomas Brundage, the judicial vicar who presided at the Church's internal discipline trial of the case, stated that he has been inaccurately quoted in the New York Times and more than 100 other newspapers and on-line periodicals. He added that "on the day that Father Murphy died, he was still the defendant in a church criminal trial." [164]

The New York Times article apparently used an incorrect translation of the document, according to Paolo Rodari of the Italian newspaper Il Foglio: "The computer-generated English version would support the NYT’s allegations against Bertone and Ratzinger, but that same conclusion is not possible if a correct review of the sources is done." In the English version used by the NYT, not only were some passages omitted, but frequently the contrary was said.[165]

Director of Apologetics and Evangelization for Catholic Answers Jimmy Akin also pointed out, "Back in 1996 the CDF did not have a mandate to handle cases of sexual abuse by priests... The reason that Weakland notified the CDF was not because the abuse of minors was involved but because the abuse of the sacrament of confession was involved." [166]

In April 2010, there were reports of a letter signed by Cardinal Ratzinger in 1985, in which he allegedly dismissed a request to laicize a Father Stephen Kiesle, a California priest accused of molesting boys. The Vatican responded that "At this stage, Father Kiesle was already dismissed from pastoral duties during the investigation, and he had no contact with any parishioners or children."[167]

The Australian transport planning academic Paul Mees wrote, "...Kiesle had already been reported to the police, convicted and sentenced. After completing his sentence, Kiesle left the priesthood and wrote to the CDF asking to be formally defrocked."[168]..

Internal division became public, with Christoph Cardinal Schönborn accusing Cardinal Angelo Sodano of blocking Ratzinger’s investigation of a high-profile case in the mid 1990s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases#United_States_7

It can be argued that there has been over-reporting of the issue too because sexual abuse elsewhere is given little attention. Last year in my part of the world the very media that was constantly criticising the Church was looking the other way when the controversy landed at their own side (cf. Times/David Norris). This has been observed elsewhere too:

quote:

In the spring of 2002, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources and concluded: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[155]

Some commentators, such as journalist Jon Dougherty, have argued that media coverage of the issue has been excessive, given that the same problems plague other institutions, such as the US public school system, with much greater frequency.[156][157][158]

Tom Hoopes, then National Catholic Register executive editor, observed: "during the first half of 2002, the 61 largest newspapers in California ran nearly 2,000 stories about sexual abuse in Catholic institutions, mostly concerning past allegations. During the same period, those newspapers ran four stories about the federal government’s discovery of the much larger — and ongoing — abuse scandal in public schools."[159]


Clearly Ratzinger's actions in the past cannot be excused as I stated before but the very same year of the reputed letter from 2001, Ratzinger had begun a policy against that of the Vatican of the time, which led to major changes within the Church, overturning ancient cannon law. The man has apologised repeatedly about the crimes of the past, something that anyone with even a passing familiarity with the church would know was unthinkable before his administration as pope. That isn't an excuse for the past, which must still be addressed, but it should be at least acknowledged that he made major changes after centuries of secrecy. That is the reason I stated it was a bit unfair to call him the "Pedo-Pope".

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/20/2012 3:53:19 AM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/21/2012 2:12:47 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
When did the "Pedo-Pope" do that as I'd like to look it up?


You might have heard of it, Crimen Sollicitationis, it's leak was kind of a big thing. It was the smoking guy that caused the Catholic Church to loose a whole bunch of lawsuits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5389684.stm
Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

Critics say the document has been used to evade prosecution for sex crimes.

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic bishops worldwide who are ordered to keep it locked away in the church safe.

It instructs them how to deal with priests who solicit sex from the confessional. It also deals with "any obscene external act ... with youths of either sex."

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.



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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/21/2012 3:21:31 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
It can be argued that there has been over-reporting of the issue too because sexual abuse elsewhere is given little attention. Last year in my part of the world the very media that was constantly criticising the Church was looking the other way when the controversy landed at their own side (cf. Times/David Norris). This has been observed elsewhere too:


I don't think there's any other organization that can be validly compared to the Catholic Church on this one. They didn't just fuck up on account of incompetence or denial, they as an organization decided to aid and abet known pedophiles.

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RE: "40 days of prayer" angers anti-Choice mo... - 4/21/2012 5:55:06 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
When did the "Pedo-Pope" do that as I'd like to look it up?

You might have heard of it, Crimen Sollicitationis, it's leak was kind of a big thing. It was the smoking guy that caused the Catholic Church to loose a whole bunch of lawsuits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/5389684.stm
Crimen Sollicitationis was enforced for 20 years by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger before he became the Pope.

It instructs bishops on how to deal with allegations of child abuse against priests and has been seen by few outsiders.

Critics say the document has been used to evade prosecution for sex crimes.

Crimen Sollicitationis was written in 1962 in Latin and given to Catholic bishops worldwide who are ordered to keep it locked away in the church safe.

It instructs them how to deal with priests who solicit sex from the confessional. It also deals with "any obscene external act ... with youths of either sex."

It imposes an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.

Breaking that oath means excommunication from the Catholic Church.


I heard about the documentary in question a few years back, there were a lot of accusations of bias. I don't know how true that was but the issue seems confused. The papal document was supposed to actually be about abuse of the confessional rather than about child sex abuse http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/update/bn080703.htm and it only came to light in 2002, after Ratzinger made reference to it in a letter which, ironically enough, was to do with changing the old procedures in dealing with such cases. I agree that the Church has a lot to answer for due to the abuse of the past but my point about Ratzinger subsequently doing a great deal to improve the situation remains.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 4/21/2012 6:12:36 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to GotSteel)
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