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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 9:22:56 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Wait... I'm confused. Did Ron just make a post that somehow avoided the topic of women blowing him?

*looks around suspiciously*

Is that really you Ron?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 11:37:08 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sincelo

I personally don't think so. You can love people and still have authority over them. And romance is subjective. Some people think getting flowers is romantic while other think it is romantic to be taken to the mountains and tied up to a tree.


Haha, that's true. Flowers and chocolate are nice, but I definitely get more "warm and fuzzies" from getting petted and told I'm a good girl.

(in reply to sincelo)
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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 11:41:39 AM   
graceadieu


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I never looked for a Master, it just happened, and I never had an interest in BDSM. It was introduced and I participated because of love. Its been a journey of understanding.

In my case, BDSM happened because of love, I actually changed my way of thinking because Love of the man. Love gave him authority. Without love, Id be saying "KISS MY ASS, YOU WANT ME TO DO WHAT???" lol.


While BDSM is something I was interested in and did before my present relationship, I'm definitely with you on love giving him authority! Without it, it's just casual bedroom play or service for me, with at least some amount of negotiation. But it's my love for him that makes me want to give him everything, submit to him in everything, and it's his love for me makes me comfortable doing it. (ETA: Which isn't to say I'd never say/think "You want me to do what???", lol, I'd just suck it up and do it anyways afterwards. )

< Message edited by graceadieu -- 4/28/2012 11:45:38 AM >

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 11:42:28 AM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

  I know there are a lot of s-types out there who say that if they do not love someone, they can not submit.  However, you can't leave out the other segment of folks who begin their connection on a D/s level first, (the authority) and then fall in love over time. 




I was one of those people. Not too long ago, actually, I was proclaiming from the rooftops that I could never submit without love. Then, I met someone who knocked that idea right out of me. It ultimately didn't work out with him, but I was comfortable with the thought of giving myself to him based on other qualities of our relationship even though there was no way I could say I yet loved him, or he me. It actually quite surprised me that I felt so strongly for someone that I hadn't proclaimed my undying love for. Refreshing, even.

Alas, I have no answer to the OP. Though I have certainly been in love, and at the time considered one of those relationships to be D/s, in retrospect I can see how much stronger it should have been, authority-wise. So I don't know if I've ever truly been there - mixing love and authority. At least not to the extent I would like. I think.


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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 12:25:08 PM   
Karmastic


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From: Los Angeles
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
So not wanting to derail another thread I'm starting this one. Yes, I know this isn't the first time it's come up but there was a fascinating statement made... or at least interesting to me.

quote:

...if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only, weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.


Opinions? Is this so in your experience? Clearly, you can't add "love" into the equation without it changing things dramatically, but are those changes so simple to predict?

(and yes, the regulars know that I fit squarely into the "all about love & romance" category and no, I don't care whether that makes me a "weekend warrior type".)


if you take the quote to it's logical conclusion, it's saying you can't have love and romance in a BDSM relationship. and it implies that's not "real" BDSM, and only wannabe weekend warrior fakes, like the Harley dudes. i don't know what "...is all about..." means - sounds like some couching using vagueness.

i think that's absurd (even kind of offensive to some). romance/love are obviously not mutually exclusive with BDSM. BDSM can actually bring a couple even closer, sharing that frontier together.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 12:31:36 PM   
caelestis


Posts: 195
Joined: 9/6/2008
Status: offline 		I'd actually say that love enhances the depth of any dynamic I've ever had. When with someone I love, I push myself all the more to be good for them, behave and live up to their standards. Punishments hit me deeper, changes to be made are met with eagerness, instead of "Nah, that's okay, I like things as they are." Love allows me to be okay with them pushing my limits. Love allows me to trust them. Love allows me to lay my worries with them and trust them to make the right decisions for us, not for just me or just him.

Without love my submission is much more superficial than it would be with it.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 12:39:20 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		That's an interesting point caelestis... and one made by some other subs. I'm actually beginning to think that the rub is not the sub loving the dom. It's the dom loving the sub.

At least in my case how that plays out is that I will not harm Carol (real harm, not a spanking or a whipping or whatnot) for my own uses. I care about her. I'm not able to be selfish regards her because honestly her needs/wants are mine and vice versa. We are two entangled for the concept of "selfish" to really have much meaning. There's just me, some guy, trying to sort out what's going to make us both happiest. It's not hard to see how that would be hollow for someone who wanted to be used selfishly.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 12:59:09 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

Who is to say what is deep? 


^^^This.

We've been together 12 wonderful years, and we're probably more in love now than in the beginning. We have a loving, caring relationship where he is the definitive head of the household, regardless of when we have our kinky sex.

According to the original post, we don't have anything deep, but the reality is that we have a 24/7 D/s relationship that has lasted 12 years. I think that pretty much qualifies as a deep relationship.


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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 1:02:17 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Yes but someone who is only interested in being used selfishly is bound to be someone in a short term relationship. Eventually you're not going to feel it's hot, but that he's a selfish jerk. And if we're talking short term relationships, how is that any different than the weekend warrior types? It's still not 24/7 if you're in it for six months and out of it for 6 years. Comes out to the same amount of time as d/s, just spread out differently.

And I'm not sure a dominant who doesn't care jack about the sub is going to be safe to play with. Hopefully the fear of jail will prevent him from making a snuff film, but if the sub leaves the relationship thinking all dominants are abusive assholes, she's going to be permanently harmed. Emotionally if not physically.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 1:03:14 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		we're in love and in a 24/7 M/s relationship. We're definitely not bedroom only kink because of the love. So no, what that person says is completely not true for us.

We've been together about 6 years now and still going strong, still in love. I'd say that we're pretty deep.




< Message edited by littlewonder -- 4/28/2012 1:05:12 PM >

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 1:28:39 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Yes but someone who is only interested in being used selfishly is bound to be someone in a short term relationship.

I dunno, take littlewonder just above. She's in a relationship which I definitely respect in terms of dynamic and love both. It's got 6 years so far with no signs of fading. Yet to my understanding that is exactly what Kana does -- and she wants him to do. I think littlewonder has made it abundantly clear. It is all and entirely about Kana and that fact, in and of itself, is what nurtures her.

Either that or I've been reading all her posts wrong somehow for quite some time -- always a definite possibility.

Actually, now that I think on it, perhaps that's the real answer. They are able to maintain a vibrantly loving relationship where he is selfish. Probably the "love stinks" crowd would be fine with that. I suspect it's people like me that are the rub. I am too close to Carol to not automatically think of the impact on her when I do something and that impact matters a great deal. In the end, it's me calling the shots but not in a selfish manner.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 1:44:30 PM   
chelita30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: poise

We can have kink every day of the week, and twice on Sunday, but without the love and romance,
the authority can go no further than skin deep and stagnates until the next kinky episode.
How is my submission expected to thrive and reach a more joyous depth if there is an on and off switch?




I totally agree with you Poise! For me, there is no issue here. D/s (to me) is about a different way of relating to one another, with sex being only a small part of that. Love and romance only serves to deepen the experience. Actually, I find the apparent contradictions a huge turn on - imagine for example sharing a tender, loving kiss while wearing piss-soaked panties... what could be better?!

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 2:36:41 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		while yes our relationship thrives on him being selfish and I enjoy that about him...I want it to be about him, I also know that he always thinks ahead about his actions and how it will affect him, me and/or us. He's not going to do anything that he knows will destroy one of those Most things though that he wants are not going to make me leave no matter how selfish they are of him. I don't like attention of any kind so his selfishness means I don't have to be concerned about that because the attention will be on him and not me.

His desires come first, our relationship comes in second, and I come in last but yet always with forethought.

It's called being a responsible citizen and human being.

But boy do I love him being selfish.

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 2:50:39 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Using FR:

Without a deep love and overriding trust I would not be his submissive, except perhaps in the bedroom. (We have a certain physical chemistry together, I have to admit he's always going to effect me that way.)

When it comes to our relationship outside the bedroom and my choice to cede power to him, that is all about love. If I did not love him the way I do, that would just never happen.

I'm introspective enough to wonder why that is, so far I haven't come up with a good answer except, it is b/c it is. And like littlewonder, I love him being selfish. I "get" to serve him and live to make him happy. To be pleasing to him in all things.

I can also admit it took years to get me here; he has great patience. So I am not talking lust, I *am* talking love.





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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 2:52:30 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Wait... I'm confused. Did Ron just make a post that somehow avoided the topic of women blowing him?

*looks around suspiciously*

Is that really you Ron?



<starts looking around for the Ron POD>

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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 2:54:02 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
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From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Yes but someone who is only interested in being used selfishly is bound to be someone in a short term relationship.

I dunno, take littlewonder just above. She's in a relationship which I definitely respect in terms of dynamic and love both. It's got 6 years so far with no signs of fading. Yet to my understanding that is exactly what Kana does -- and she wants him to do. I think littlewonder has made it abundantly clear. It is all and entirely about Kana and that fact, in and of itself, is what nurtures her.

Either that or I've been reading all her posts wrong somehow for quite some time -- always a definite possibility.

Actually, now that I think on it, perhaps that's the real answer. They are able to maintain a vibrantly loving relationship where he is selfish. Probably the "love stinks" crowd would be fine with that. I suspect it's people like me that are the rub. I am too close to Carol to not automatically think of the impact on her when I do something and that impact matters a great deal. In the end, it's me calling the shots but not in a selfish manner.


But what if you being selfish made Carol happier? I think that's where it gets a bit fuzzy.

We've been exploring this lately in my relationship. His concern is for my happiness as well as his, and he wants to make decisions that are good and healthy for both of us, because he loves me.... but I like him being a little selfish, feeling a little like it's just about what he wants. It turns me on, and rubs the self-sacrificing part of my submission just the right way. And he likes it too, but I think didn't feel all the way comfortable with it before because he loves me and wants me to be happy! So after some discussion, we've been taking some baby steps in that direction. But it's still about what makes us happier, not just him, so I guess we'd be too warm and fuzzy for the "love stinks" crowd too, lol.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 3:05:25 PM   
CastleRock32


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Joined: 10/2/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: poise


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

.....if the relationship is all about love and romance with a bit of kink it is going to end up the bedroom only,
weekend warrior type of relationship, not something very deep on the kink or submission side.


I have to wonder if the author of your referenced statement mistyped or something because my
thoughts are completely opposite to those. Heck, maybe I’m an oddball.

We can have kink every day of the week, and twice on Sunday, but without the love and romance,
the authority can go no further than skin deep and stagnates until the next kinky episode.
How is my submission expected to thrive and reach a more joyous depth if there is an on and off switch?
Love and romance is what inspires me to offer more of myself, and to do so with consistency.



QFT

For me, the love I feel for my Wife enhances my submission, rather than the other way around. It is my love for her that makes it so WIITWD happens outside of kinky scenes in the bedroom.

So the two aren't at all mutually exclusive, imo.

(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 4:19:37 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
But what if you being selfish made Carol happier? I think that's where it gets a bit fuzzy.

That comment... and littlewonder's above... make me wonder. Remembering that Carol has no particular drive to submit and harbors no sexy fantasies about submission or slavery, the entire thing is pointed squarely at me. The single and only reason she does it is because it pleases me. By default, Carol in her own words "prefers to defer". But there's a world of difference between that and absolute obedience. In the biggest picture, the whole gig is for me. I know that and I'm willing to take what is offered within the limits of my own judgement as to what is good for US. In that sense what I do is selfish. I just have a hard time seeing it that way because so much of my attention and thought goes to wanting her to be happy, fulfilled, and generally at the top of Maslow's pyramid.

That being said, there are absolutely times I take what I want because I want it. Realistically, that HAS to be the correct answer at least some of the time when considering the good of "us". In addition, there's this other factor between Carol and I. It's true that I'm unlikely to want anything she actively does not. But it's also true I'm perfectly willing to reach inside of her and simply change what she wants or values thereby bringing us into alignment. So yeah, certainly for Carol and I things are more than a bit fuzzy. My way out of that insanity was just to see us as one unit instead of two people. That gets me out of the "I want what she wants which is what I want..." craziness and leaves me with the simple problem of "what's going to make the most happiness".

The best example I know of what you're talking about graceadieu is beth (half of Mercnbeth). As far as she is concerned she promised Merc "anything" and that she was not just another bottom pretending to be a slave when they got together. My understanding is she can get pretty testy with him when she even sniffs out that there might, perhaps, be some horrid deed that he's unwilling to perform. The last time I heard about such a conversation her line was something like, "What? You think I'm a liar?" ROFL, and knowing what all Merc gets up to, I can only boggle at what, exactly, he balked on. Whatever it was though it just had to be a doozie. Still though, as I understand it, she was genuinely offended *laughs* -- freakin slaves.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 4:38:32 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14442
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I never looked for a Master, it just happened, and I never had an interest in BDSM. It was introduced and I participated because of love. Its been a journey of understanding.

In my case, BDSM happened because of love, I actually changed my way of thinking because Love of the man. Love gave him authority. Without love, Id be saying "KISS MY ASS, YOU WANT ME TO DO WHAT???" lol.


While BDSM is something I was interested in and did before my present relationship, I'm definitely with you on love giving him authority! Without it, it's just casual bedroom play or service for me, with at least some amount of negotiation. But it's my love for him that makes me want to give him everything, submit to him in everything, and it's his love for me makes me comfortable doing it. (ETA: Which isn't to say I'd never say/think "You want me to do what???", lol, I'd just suck it up and do it anyways afterwards. )


Since she was cheating on her husband...and showed up to some guys house a couple of times a month to blow him, give him money and clean his house while he refused to have sex with her.......I doubt your relationships are even remotely similar.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Love & Authority? - 4/28/2012 6:10:20 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I never looked for a Master, it just happened, and I never had an interest in BDSM. It was introduced and I participated because of love. Its been a journey of understanding.

In my case, BDSM happened because of love, I actually changed my way of thinking because Love of the man. Love gave him authority. Without love, Id be saying "KISS MY ASS, YOU WANT ME TO DO WHAT???" lol.


While BDSM is something I was interested in and did before my present relationship, I'm definitely with you on love giving him authority! Without it, it's just casual bedroom play or service for me, with at least some amount of negotiation. But it's my love for him that makes me want to give him everything, submit to him in everything, and it's his love for me makes me comfortable doing it. (ETA: Which isn't to say I'd never say/think "You want me to do what???", lol, I'd just suck it up and do it anyways afterwards. )


Since she was cheating on her husband...and showed up to some guys house a couple of times a month to blow him, give him money and clean his house while he refused to have sex with her.......I doubt your relationships are even remotely similar.



Oh man, that was her? I totally forgot about that, hahaha. No, you're right. Really nothing like that.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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