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Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 10:51:22 AM

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I've always considered punishments and rewards as a staple part of the D/s relationship until it was mentioned on another thread by several Dommes that they did not subscribe to them (specifically that their subs should simply obey them). I would consider anything that is done consistently to enforce one's displeasure at a behaviour or thing to be a punishment, and any consistent thing done or given to show one's approval of a thing or behaviour as reward. Am I mistaken and "the Punishment/Reward dynamic" is actually a specific thing?

What is the punishment/reward dynamic to a submissive/slave, and how does it work for you (regardless of your orientation) in your relationships and play?

RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 11:01:56 AM

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We have a punishment/reward dynamic.

I specifically chose a man who liked that dynamic as I find it works best for me.

If I mess up, then I'm punished, usually physically. These mess ups don't include stuff over which I have no control - for example, I was late to meet Master because there was a traffic accident in my street and I couldn't get past the emergency vehicles. But if I was late because I faffed on and left the house late, then there would be punishment.

Rewards are usually hugs, snuggles, murmured words of affection and orgasms

I wouldn't say that this dynamic would work for everyone, but it works for us and in the end, that's all that matters.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 11:19:55 AM

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I'm not sure what is meant by others here by "punishment/reward." But the way I see it, everything anyone ever does produces consequences that equate to either positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, or neutral stimulus.

By that definition, I am constantly rewarded for being satisfactory in my Master's eyes. Things that constitute positive reinforcement for me include words of affirmation or affection, getting petted or some other form of physical affection, or even anything that lets me know I've done a good job and made my Master happy or satisfied in some way, such as a smile on his face. I love being praised and petted and told I'm a good girl and that I've done a good job. It is very personally rewarding and makes me happy to know in no uncertain terms that he is pleased with me.

As for punishment, my Master rarely if ever actually actively inflicts a punishment on me. It's just unnecessary for the most part. He is well within his rights to do so, but we have both discovered that the greatest and most effective punishment to me is just the knowledge that I have failed him in some way. In over 3 years, he has only punished me once, only to find out that it made no real difference--no punishment he could inflict on me would be more negatively reinforcing to me than his disappointment in me and my feelings of shame and failure in having disappointed him. I like pleasing and obeying him, and so knowing I've failed at that is more than enough motivation for me to try my best to make sure it doesn't happen again.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 11:44:48 AM

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two different POV's up there and i agree with both of them - is that sitting on the fence

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 11:56:56 AM

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ok, probably..,

part of me feels that im an adult woman i have made a choice to obey and to abide by the rules of Ms, to do anything else would let me down and Him down and i dont want to do that.

but there is a discipline line i need i suppose, one i know that if i cross im in trouble - its clearly drawn and the consequence would be punishment.

because i dont wish to put Him or me through that i try really hard not to make the same mistake twice. in that way punishment is effective for me - through the whole thing of doing everything i can to avoid it, i just dont want to bug him that much.

its difficult to make a distinction between a dynamic that enjoys the punishment dynamic and is in some respects constructed around it and the relationships above mentioned, simply through the use of the word 'punishment' and maybe thats why people are so keen to separate themselves from the mishmush of kinks and needs and the whole TFTB thing and brat thing and ach!!

i think to say that there are no consequences for getting it wrong is a little unrealistic though, but i think its based on the fact that people here are adults and we've made choices and we should stand by them and adults should be self governing.

but a line drawn works for me - i dont wish to step over it but if i do He has stipulated punishment will be the outcome and really thats enough for me because i dont wish to let him down or piss him off, why would i want to do that anyway.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 12:56:45 PM

AthenaSurrenders

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I suppose we have a punishment dynamic.

For me it is a positive thing. I too often feel that as a responsible adult punishment should be unnecessary and struggle to put my finger on exactly why I need it in my relationship. The closest I can get is this:

I only had one serious relationship before my husband, and it was filled with drama. She was highly unpredictable, passive aggressive and emotionally manipulative. Added to this I was pretty young and immature myself. Often she would sulk for days over some imagined slight (as trivial as not sounding sufficiently enthusiastic when she suggested we watched 'friends') without telling me why. Or we would disagree over something and then everything would seem fine, until days later it would suddenly come out in a fit of temper. It was exhausting and I never knew where I stood. I spent a lot of time second-guessing myself, walking on eggshells and constantly slightly stressed and anxious waiting for the next thing that would blow up.

My husband has never been like that. He is very straightforward and reasonable. I have no reason to second guess him, and yet I find it hard not to. I am harder on myself than he is and need constant reassurance that I didn't screw up, which must be exhausting for him. A punishment dynamic helps me control all that mental mess - if I mess up he will let me know and he will correct me. I am learning to trust that he will do this. A punishment lets me know he cares enough about the relationship to fix it and he believes I am capable of better.

Edited to add: I think some people picture something different when talking about punishment - the kind of relationship where the sub needs to be constantly supervised and kept in line in order to keep submitting, or where the dom sets the sub up to fail or punishes the sub for things they couldn't control. We don't do that, except in a playful way for fun.

< Message edited by AthenaSurrenders -- 5/12/2012 1:00:24 PM >

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 1:43:43 PM

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For us it's simple. If I knowingly disobey for no rhyme or reason at all or I'm acting up, I'm punished. The punishment depends on what I did wrong. Reward is something he gives me when he feels I accomplished something that was difficult for me and he knew it would be. The reward could be anything...a smile, kind words, a kiss or something more material.

For us it's a normal part of our relationship.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 2:50:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta
What is the punishment/reward dynamic to a submissive/slave, and how does it work for you (regardless of your orientation) in your relationships and play?

The positive incentive is that the marriage we have built is happy and warm and fluffy and nurtures us both. The negative incentive is that disobedience would mess with the warm fluffiness. I couldn't really see a life of her disobeying and me punishing her so I simply precluded disobedience right from the beginning.

I said, "Obey until you don't want to any more."
She said, "OK."

Then she did that. She's free to stop being mine whenever she chooses simply by saying "No". The only penalty attached to that from her standpoint is that I like "owning" her so she wants me to "own" her because it adds to that warm fluffiness. Given that arrangement she can't really "disobey" so much as make a decision to stop being mine. Honestly, Carol and I operate so closely as one that concepts like "I command her then she decides if she'll obey or not then I decide to punish her or not" really don't 'make sense.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 2:51:06 PM

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I'm in a relationship with a very sweet, yet sadistic man. We don't have a punishment/reward dynamic. (We're not into d/s.) He can whack & thwack me at will, or whenever the mood strikes him. Or me, for that matter. I'm a happy sadomaso. He likes causing me physical pain. I like receiving that pain. We are a complementary couple in that respect.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 5:08:17 PM

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While punishments *do* occur on very rare occasion, I wouldn't say we have a punishment/reward system, because my incentive to obey, love and be loved is not tied to a reward or a punishment. I obey and love him because it's intrinsic to who I am with him, and I am internally fulfilled by doing so.

He loves me, because who I am fulfills him, and because he in turn can be the person he is, with me.

Our relationship naturally flows on its own in a way in which we both feel rewarded, and not because of good deeds the other has done. For example, he took me out to breakfast this morning, and it was really relaxing and nice, but it wasn't because I had "earned" enough points to have pancakes served to me per se, it was because we had a late night and we were both tired and he wanted to treat both of us to breakfast.

I'm pretty sure if I had been a pain in the ass, he'd have lost the desire to take me to breakfast, and we wouldn't have gone. Not a punishment, just like going was not a reward - just desire/lack of desire to do something, due to how our relationship felt at the time.

Sometimes he does something special for me because he feels inclined to, and because he wants to acknowledge being happy with me. But I don't see it as a "reward" because then I'd feel like I was being his cool and awesome women simply to get a nice prize with a bow on it, and that's not how it is.

As for those few times I do get punished, it's typically been for disregarding the health of the relationship, and it's his way of recentering/refocusing me. It's not a big ordeal whereby I'm beaten and made to feel like a piece of shit, it's just an underline to a serious discussion about what happened. Like, when I smoked because I was really stressed by something that happened between us, he wouldn't kiss me for a day because he didn't want his mouth touching where cigarettes had been. And yeah, I felt it - I love his kisses, and I missed them. If my mouth is his, then I shouldn't put things in it that he wouldn't want to taste

His "punishments" are typically ways to underline a message, like the above, rather than to hurt me for something I did. They're not retaliative; they're educational.

Anyway, that's how it rolls over here.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 6:16:43 PM

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I'd argue that ALL relationships are based around reward/punishment. It;s intrinsic to human behaviour.
'You've been really nice to me, so I got your favourite pudding.'
'Not tonight, I have a headache'.

I get the impression that in many cases (especially at the start of a relationship) some people like those rules to be very clearly established. Whether thats a sub wanting to know where they stand, or a dom wanting to make it clear that this is how they want things to go.

Does this just become less over as times goes on?

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 7:18:14 PM

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For us, yes. I'm in a long term committed relationship with Master and we've known each other for many many years now. Like any people getting to know each other, after awhile you simply know what they like and don't like, what they expect of another, their emotions, etc...I know how Master wants things because I've been with him a long time now.

Now that's not to say I know absolutely everything. If he throws in something new he'll let me know how he wants it done with clear and concise instructions. If I get it wrong the first time he'll look at it and decide if he explained it well enough or not, he'll explain it again and then I try again. If I fuck up a second time then it's not on him, it's on me.

It's really no different than most relationships.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 8:07:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalthus

I'd argue that ALL relationships are based around reward/punishment. It;s intrinsic to human behaviour.
'You've been really nice to me, so I got your favourite pudding.'
'Not tonight, I have a headache'.

I consider reward/punishment dynamics to be more along the line of, "I'm going to be really nice to you, so I can have my favorite pudding." And that's what I don't personally subscribe to. I see what you described above as two (or more) people just sharing reciprocating kindness. I don't see that as a reward.

quote:

I get the impression that in many cases (especially at the start of a relationship) some people like those rules to be very clearly established. Whether thats a sub wanting to know where they stand, or a dom wanting to make it clear that this is how they want things to go.

Does this just become less over as times goes on?

Yes, over time these things become automatic and come about somewhat naturally. But in my case, understanding the rules at hand was not a process aligned with any established reward/punishment system.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 8:24:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalthus

I'd argue that ALL relationships are based around reward/punishment. It;s intrinsic to human behaviour.
'You've been really nice to me, so I got your favourite pudding.'

No, with us it's more like: I was at the store and couldn't decide on a dessert. I got your favorite pudding.

quote:

'Not tonight, I have a headache'.

Srsly? Who uses that these days? Orgasms work wonders to help headaches dissipate, in my experience. (Not counting migraines.)

Or he could pick up a paddle for foreplay.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 11:12:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

For us, yes. I'm in a long term committed relationship with Master and we've known each other for many many years now. Like any people getting to know each other, after awhile you simply know what they like and don't like, what they expect of another, their emotions, etc...I know how Master wants things because I've been with him a long time now.

Now that's not to say I know absolutely everything. If he throws in something new he'll let me know how he wants it done with clear and concise instructions. If I get it wrong the first time he'll look at it and decide if he explained it well enough or not, he'll explain it again and then I try again. If I fuck up a second time then it's not on him, it's on me.

It's really no different than most relationships.

QFT!!

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/12/2012 11:22:08 PM

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I am more into relationship synergy rather than reward/punishment. I will pick up his favourite biscuits becuase I'm that kind of a gal. I suspect he would do the same for me.

Honestly, what kinds of things are we asking here, that we need to keep track of things? Ishe going to serve me eggplant when he knows I hate it? I'm not the parent, I'm half of a partnership.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/13/2012 12:29:14 AM

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quote:

I will pick up his favourite biscuits becuase I'm that kind of a gal. I suspect he would do the same for me.

Out of interest -what if he DIDN'T do the biscuit thing? What if he habitually came home with the wrong kind? My guess is, you would either stop recipricating, or you'd find some way of 'training in' the behaviour you want. At the same time, he would be able to get extra brownie points when he did remember

I'm not saying that we all consciously go round training our partners (like Sheldon with Penny in 'The Big Bang') but rewarding good behaviour and punishing bad behaviour is an unconscious and completely natural part of human behavior.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/13/2012 6:57:43 AM

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Nah, we don't do this. I obey because I said I would, because that's the kind of relationship we want to have with each other. If I'm not doing a good job fulfilling his expectations, we talk about it and I try to fix the problem. It's not about rewards and punishments, it's about about the health and happiness of our relationship, and his pleasure or displeasure.

And if I stopped feeling like obeying him, punishments wouldn't help any. At that point we'd have to renegotiate the terms of our relationship.

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/13/2012 9:47:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalthus
I'm not saying that we all consciously go round training our partners (like Sheldon with Penny in 'The Big Bang') but rewarding good behaviour and punishing bad behaviour is an unconscious and completely natural part of human behavior.

Correct but also not particularly helpful in my own thinking. So basically yes, ALL human interactions involve positive and negative incentive... in fact simply existing in life involves those things. But that doesn't really get to the heart of the words "reward" and "punishment". It's such a broad generalization that it's true but non-useful.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Punishment/Reward and You - 5/13/2012 10:58:15 AM

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Punishment/reward hold no appeal for me.
They don't teach me anything.

And being rewarded in return for a specific thing makes me feel like a trained seal being tossed a fish.

We've had horses for the last decade, so I would like to give examples from horse training.

For horses, you use positive and negative reinforcement. If you want to teach a horse to move to the right, you put pressure on him by squeezing with your left knee and moving the right rein out from him. This is negative reinforcement.

When he takes the first step to the right, you remove the pushing and pulling. This is positive reinforcement.

Hitting him with a crop is punishment, and it doesn't teach him to move to the right.

Giving him a peppermint and telling him what a good boy he is while patting his neck is reward. You'll notice it also doesn't teach him to move to the right.

Neither punishment nor reward will teach skills. And if you want people to learn skills and do them to your satisfaction, then you need to be able to teach them. Now some horses pick up a skill in an hour, and others take weeks to learn the same skill. Hitting the slower one with a crop isn't going to teach him anything except to avoid you.

And it's a lot easier to traumatize a horse or person with punishment than it is to later on attempt to teach them the skill that they couldn't master and were beaten for not learning.

In addition, if you ask most people who are in relationships that have lasted, you'll discover that punishment may have been used in the beginning but was discarded early on.

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