Why Atheism Scares People (Full Version)

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fucktoyprincess -> Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 6:12:24 AM)

I don't generally go advertising the fact that I am an atheist (except when on a relatively anonymous site like this). And the reason for that is that generally when I do tell people who believe in god that I am, I am met with some mix of horror, disgust, pity and fear. Even from people who know me well. It really upsets people who believe that I should choose to not believe in the idea of god.

I do believe that people (a vast majority of people) need religion. I think religion provides people with a way to make sense of the world, prevents them from having to deal with too much ambiguity, and placates fear about both existence and the after-life. And for many, if they need religion to deal with those issues, they simply can't fathom how I could exist without the same need. So their conclusion is that, well obviously something is deeply wrong with her.

I also think that religion provides a way for people to assuage any guilt or personal responsibility for the bad things that go on in the world. They can easily rely on any number of things, depending on their personal faith, to explain it. So bad things happen because there is a devil, because evil roams the earth, because god wants it this way, because god is punishing us, because we did something bad in a prior existence, etc., etc., etc.

As an atheist, I have to contend with the sad and depressing fact that, well, s**t just happens. And there is no divine explanation. And the only way to prevent bad things from either happening at all, or to minimize the pain from bad things, is to personally take responsibility to try to prevent bad things from happening or to minimize the pain from bad things - not just for oneself, or one's family, but for other people, too. How? Through one's politics, one's charitable giving (money and time), through one's ideas. The one thing I cannot do is simply say, "well this is god's way."

So atheism is scary to most people because it means they have to confront the fact that they are, in fact, responsible for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And most people can't survive day to day if they feel they are personally responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world. So much easier to let god handle that so that day-to-day life can go on unfettered. And what does one have to do to let god worry about it. Pray. Is is any surprise that for most people that is a much easier emotional, psychological bargain than to actually have to say, "I am responsible, and I need to go and do something about this."

Also, many people assume that if I am atheist I must be completely amoral. Again, for many, it is the fear of god and god's wrath that keeps people in line. So for them to imagine someone behaving in a good, decent, kind way who is not religious seems truly beyond their imagination. They are hard pressed to imagine why someone would treat others kindly if there was no reason (one's own salvation) to do so. Some people are incapable of imagining that one should be kind not because of the promise of heaven, or nirvana, or an after-life, but simply because with the one life that I have on this planet, being kind is the right thing to do. Period. Oddly, I am also someone who does not fear death. I see it as the natural end to our life. I don't need a belief in god to die in "peace".

I have resigned myself to the fact that most believers, due to their need for religion, will never be able to view me objectively. So, I suspect, I will not be sharing my true religious views with too many people who know me (except for my large group of atheist friends). Trust me, I've seen how people react when they are told. People who are tolerant in many other ways seem incapable of tolerating one who believes in no god of any stripe. I will continue my peaceful, tolerant existence where I believe I am responsible for what happens to others. And I will continue to both do and advocate for policies that ensure a well cared for society. Because prayer and a reliance on god to solve the world's problems is not, actually, going to work.




SilverBoat -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 6:49:53 AM)

Atheist or Agnostic?

... Despite the range to which physics, cosmology, etc have expanded (some what pun intended) humankind's grasp of the universe, it's still entirely possible that a 'being' or 'beings' of some sort 'created' the reality in which we (at least) appear to exist. It does seem rather more likely that the possible being or beings 'initiated' the universe, and no longer modify it at scales humans perceive, but that's not a firm conclusion either.

... The point, perhaps, is that science keeps increasing how 'supreme' a being would have to be in order to accomplish what various religious cults claim that their 'god' has done. A few millenia ago, myths about creating stars and firmaments from nothing and humans from clay were sufficient to persuade just about everyone. Nowadays, a sufficient 'god' would have to start with quarks and a big-bang or some such, in order to be plausible as a 'creator' of the universe.

... Organized 'religions' have problems with expanded capability of 'gods' because that undermines much of the social-control theocratic garbage they've inculcated on their sheeple. It also makes rewards-in-the-afterlife much harder to 'sell', and also makes the basis for cooperative moralities somewhat more complicated.

... One thing to maybe keep in mind about 'true-believers' is that they've had generations of fear of  'godless' hammered into their minds.

... Personally, I think it'd be nice if some sort of supreme being(s) existed, but I'm not at all convinced that's the case.

...




GotSteel -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 7:10:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat
Atheist or Agnostic?


If you start talking to atheists a lot of us (myself and Richard Dawkins included) would answer yes to both of those.




Anaxagoras -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 7:16:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat
Atheist or Agnostic?

If you start talking to atheists a lot of us (myself and Richard Dawkins included) would answer yes to both of those.

I don't think one can be both at the same time...

Hang on a sec, I'm just off to have a "humanist reflection". [:D]




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 7:40:41 AM)

fr

As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that, despite your claim to the contrary; And most people can't survive day to day if they feel they are personally responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world.

The short of it, Jesus said, for instance, that the poor will be with us, always. This is quite opposite of Because prayer and a reliance on god to solve the world's problems is not, actually, going to work. Of course not, as i.e poverty was stated, by Jesus himself, will not be solved. Man's attempts have fared no better.

Pray. Is is any surprise that for most people that is a much easier emotional, psychological bargain than to actually have to say, "I am responsible, and I need to go and do something about this."
[...]
And I will continue to both do and advocate for policies that ensure a well cared for society. Because prayer and a reliance on god to solve the world's problems is not, actually, going to work.


How's the war on poverty worked out so far? Seems that the more that is done about it the worse it gets. As governments have grown it appears the world is getting to be an even more dangerous place.

Personally, I think it'd be nice if some sort of supreme being(s) existed, but I'm not at all convinced that's the case.

One's perspective, or viewpoint, is highly determined by what evidence one will accept. Most atheists rely almost exclusively upon science or the scientific method. That's fair, even rational if one understands that perspective. But as evidence encompasses more than science, science alone is therefore quite limiting. It's that limiting factor that escapes the atheist.

Just my opinion here, and as a Christian, the truth is way more odd (for lack of a better word) than even Hollywood could devise. One just need to view the evidence, even with a skeptical eye.





Moonhead -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:16:47 AM)

Matthew 25:
quote:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’


Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?




GotSteel -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:29:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I do believe that people (a vast majority of people) need religion.

I think people need religion because they have been raised to need religion.

For a lot of children in my country Christianity has been woven into every aspect of their lives and understanding of the world around them by the time they have reached an age where they can do any significant pondering on these matters for themselves.

They also have never ever met an atheist, our entire worldview is foreign and there's quite a bit of propaganda designed to get them to misunderstand it




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:33:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Also, many people assume that if I am atheist I must be completely amoral. Again, for many, it is the fear of god and god's wrath that keeps people in line. So for them to imagine someone behaving in a good, decent, kind way who is not religious seems truly beyond their imagination. They are hard pressed to imagine why someone would treat others kindly if there was no reason (one's own salvation) to do so. Some people are incapable of imagining that one should be kind not because of the promise of heaven, or nirvana, or an after-life, but simply because with the one life that I have on this planet, being kind is the right thing to do. Period.


That underscores, as one example, much of the animosity between atheists (most notably the hard core; Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and even Dennett) and the religious. Not for specifically what is stated as the base is sound, but the why of it. Two camps, both laying claim to differing foundations of right and wrong; morality.

Both cannot be right. One has a solid foundation, the other built on sand. But which one, and why?

I take note of this, and even find it a bit humorous -

quote:

GotSteel
ORIGINAL: SilverBoat
Atheist or Agnostic?

If you start talking to atheists a lot of us (myself and Richard Dawkins included) would answer yes to both of those.


Interesting if one goes by strict definition.







vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:46:51 AM)

quote:

So atheism is scary to most people because it means they have to confront the fact that they are, in fact, responsible for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And most people can't survive day to day if they feel they are personally responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world. So much easier to let god handle that so that day-to-day life can go on unfettered. And what does one have to do to let god worry about it. Pray. Is is any surprise that for most people that is a much easier emotional, psychological bargain than to actually have to say, "I am responsible, and I need to go and do something about this."


There is a long and continuing history of Christians who are 'called' to assist the impoverished and to better living conditions for the here and now. Your point here seems bogus.




SternSkipper -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:48:42 AM)

quote:

Man's attempts have fared no better.


Nonsense... Man's attempts get better and more efficient all the time. Try volunteering in a food bank some time.





vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:49:36 AM)

quote:

People who are tolerant in many other ways seem incapable of tolerating one who believes in no god of any stripe


Why do you think this is so?




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:50:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Matthew 25:
quote:

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’


Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?



If I beat the crap outta you, rob you, and leave you in the gutter - I am responsible for that.
If I were one who comes along, finds you beaten and robbed and do nothing where it's within my power and ability to do something I have shirked my responsibility.

To which are you referring within the context of being responsible? To which was I referring? Are they the same?





submaleuk12 -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:53:06 AM)

I think it's the atheists who are the untolerant ones.

Like many I have a spiritual side, I'm more than comfortable with that and don't feel the need to tell others unless the subject is brought up, atheists on the other hand seem intent on attacking a person because they have a different belief to them, they should be more respectful of others.




vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 8:59:22 AM)

quote:

That underscores, as one example, much of the animosity between atheists (most notably the hard core; Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and even Dennett) and the religious. Not for specifically what is stated as the base is sound, but the why of it. Two camps, both laying claim to differing foundations of right and wrong; morality.


This is an old story that predates Dawkins. He is only the current incarnation of evil. I found this a very informative book on the history of Doubt




vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 9:03:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleuk12

I think it's the atheists who are the untolerant ones.

Like many I have a spiritual side, I'm more than comfortable with that and don't feel the need to tell others unless the subject is brought up, atheists on the other hand seem intent on attacking a person because they have a different belief to them, they should be more respectful of others.


A wild generalization. You know this how? How many atheists have you known, I wonder?




submaleuk12 -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 9:06:48 AM)

I'm talking about my own experience nothing more, that's all anyone can do.

How many Christians has the original poster met? What's the difference?




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 9:07:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

That underscores, as one example, much of the animosity between atheists (most notably the hard core; Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and even Dennett) and the religious. Not for specifically what is stated as the base is sound, but the why of it. Two camps, both laying claim to differing foundations of right and wrong; morality.


This is an old story that predates Dawkins. He is only the current incarnation of evil. I found this a very informative book on the history of Doubt



Read some of the reviews. Looks quite interesting. I may read that book one of these days, when I've cleaned my reading list up a bit.




vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 9:09:15 AM)

There is actually published research on the intolerence of Christians. Check it out. Aethists come in last in the Christian buddy list.

Would you let your daughter marry one? [kidding]




vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 9:11:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

That underscores, as one example, much of the animosity between atheists (most notably the hard core; Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, and even Dennett) and the religious. Not for specifically what is stated as the base is sound, but the why of it. Two camps, both laying claim to differing foundations of right and wrong; morality.


This is an old story that predates Dawkins. He is only the current incarnation of evil. I found this a very informative book on the history of Doubt



Read some of the reviews. Looks quite interesting. I may read that book one of these days, when I've cleaned my reading list up a bit.


Just blew me away to learn how long this battle has been on going!!




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/15/2012 9:11:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

There is actually published research on the intolerence of Christians. Check it out. Aethists come in last in the Christian buddy list.

Would you let your daughter marry one? [kidding]


Sure[;)] A GOOD [insert religion here] wedding is to be appreciated[;)]




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