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"Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 2:23:16 PM

YSG

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Ok, so... I've heard a number of people lately screaming about "Godless Communism". Yes, they are mostly anti-Obama tea party knuckledraggers, but I digress.

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

I've also heard the idea that "it doesnt work". How do you know it doesnt? Sure, the Soviet Union went under, but they also bankrupted themselves by fighting in Afghanistan for almost 10 years after a period of worldwide economic stagnation (sound familiar?).

"Communism is anti-religious". Well, ok, to some extent this is true. Granted, the USSR and PRC never had a friendly relationship with beleivers, however if you ask most American communists, they would agree that a persons beleifs are their buisness. As far a Marx calling religion "The opiate of the masses", well, do these right wing bible thumping types seem like sane and rational people to you?

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 2:41:09 PM

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I always thought, that for Americans, at least, this articulated it best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZEJ4OJTgg8

Everything anti-individual, rolled into one horrific alien race.

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http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 2:49:45 PM

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Marx said that,not as a put down of religion but as an observation of the relief and comfort it gave people.

Kinda like the way an emotionally immature person looks at nude art and thinks dirt and sex,the rightists heard that and thought Marx was saying that god fearing folks were like drug addicts.

And beleive me.......in China......communism is doing quite well and wall street LOVES them.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/21/2012 2:50:32 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 3:15:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Marx said that,not as a put down of religion but as an observation of the relief and comfort it gave people.

Here's some context as to his observation -

source: The Communist Review, June 1924, Vol. 5, No. 2.
Publisher: Communist Party of Great Britain
Transcription/Markup: Brian Reid
Public Domain: Marxists Internet Archive (2007). You may freely copy, distribute, display and perform this work; as well as make derivative and commercial works. Please credit “Marxists Internet Archive” as your source.

Dear Comrade,

In the Forum of last month’s issue of the Communist Review, I noticed a very misleading article entitled “Should We Combat Religion,” criticising the action of the Enlarged Executive of the Comintern for attacking religion, and preaching Atheism in the interests of Communism. According to the writing, “it is not religion itself that our Party should fight against, but only the falsification of it in the interests of capitalist society.”

For a Communist to hold such a confusing opinion is, to say the least, dangerous—both to himself and to the militant interests of the working class. The Christian teachings of the I.L.P. before the war, led to pacifism, which is, judging from the words of Christ, true Christianity, and pacifism lulls into inactivity the best fighting elements of the working class, thereby leaving them entirely at the mercy of the capitalist class, without the will or the means of resistance.

Would Lenin have accomplished the Revolution if he had adhered to the Christian doctrine of pacifism instead of waging the class war? Will the Communist Parties in the various countries overthrow capitalism by the Christian doctrine of love and gentle persuasion instead of by the use of force!

No, decidedly not! No one can be consistently both a Christian and a Communist. A true Christian believes in turning the other cheek, resisting not oppression, returning good for evil. It would be madness for a Communist to adopt such an attitude towards the oppression of the capitalist class.

According to Frederick Engels, so surely does the acceptance of the materialistic conception of history lead to the exclusion of religion that the attempt to couple them betrays charlatanism, or lack of thought. It is indeed surprising that any member of the Communist Party who naturally accepts the materialistic conception of history, which leaves no room for divine influence in the making of history should wish to introduce religion into the Party. If we adopted religion, the result would be disastrous.

I would advise Comrade Baldwin, and all wavering comrades to study Bishop Brown’s “Communism and Christianism,” price 1/-, published by the Communist Party, which ably describes the conflict between religion and Communism.

It should be the duty of every member of the Party to read this book, written to a Christian Socialist by an American bishop converted from orthodox Christianity to Communism, from which the following is a quotation—

“The contradiction in terms known as the Christian Socialist is inevitably antagonistic to working class interests and the waging of the class struggle. His policy (that of the Christian Socialist) is the conciliation of classes, the fraternity of robbers and robbed, not the end of classes. His avowed object, indeed, is usually to purge the Socialist movement of its materialism, and this means to purge it of its Socialism, and to divert from its materialisms to the fruitless chasing of spiritual will-o’-the-wisps. A Christian Socialist is, indeed, an anti-Socialist.”

I will conclude with the memorable words of Comrade Trotsky—

“And therefore, we adopt a ruthlessly irreconcilable attitude to anyone who utters a single word to the effect that mysticism or religious sentimentality might be combined with Communism. Religiousness is irreconcilable with the Marxian standpoint.

“We are of opinion that Atheism, as an inseparable element of the materialist view of life, is a necessary condition for the theoretical education of the revolutionist.

“He who believes in another world is not capable of concentrating all his passion on the transformation of this one."

Yours fraternally,
LESLIE MASON,
Barrow Branch

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 3:19:41 PM

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One should also consider that most Germans and Italians were god fearing.........the whole time WWII was going down.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/21/2012 3:23:23 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 3:20:01 PM

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quote:

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

You need to look carefully at the history of farm collectivism, gulag imprisonment, deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians by the Soviets; the re-eucation and forced farm labor of intellectuals in the PRC and Cambodia. You will find your answer in that history.

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 3:23:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

One should also consider that most Germans and Italians were god fearing.........the time WWII was going down.

But their Dictatoships were Socialists . . . . Fascism was Socialist at its core; not free enterprise.

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 3:23:07 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

You need to look carefully at the history of farm collectivism, gulag imprisonment, deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians by the Soviets; the re-eucation and forced farm labor of intellectuals in the PRC and Cambodia. You will find your answer in that history.

A sense of history is essential in seeing the big picture of how these major changes in political structure actually came about in the first place--not just how they were thought of, but how they were implemented in the larger scale.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

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RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 6:05:25 PM

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quote:

Here's some context as to his observation -

That's really interesting, Yachtie. Thanks.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 6:11:16 PM

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quote:

And beleive me.......in China......communism is doing quite well and wall street LOVES them.

In fairness, though, doesn't China's recent success owe a lot to policies, under Deng Xiaoping and his successors, that made the economy much more market-oriented?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Owner59)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 6:19:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

You need to look carefully at the history of farm collectivism, gulag imprisonment, deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians by the Soviets; the re-eucation and forced farm labor of intellectuals in the PRC and Cambodia. You will find your answer in that history.

I would add an image that's haunted me ever since learning about it in sixth grade. After World War II, divided Berlin became something of a microcosm for competing philosophies. People in East Berlin were so determined to flee Communist rule that the regime literally had to build a wall to keep folks in..

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 6:27:21 PM

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There is little but lip service to Communism in China's recent success. Under the Maoist revisions of Marxism the country almost ruined itself several times. When central control was relaxed (and largely for the benefit of party functionary and local military commander entrepreneurs!) the economy exploded.
Like all other "Communist" governments, ideology was used to empower just a different exploitative class of oppressors, the Party insiders, instead of the previous bastards. No place has facilitated the ''ascendancy of the working class".

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 8:31:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

And beleive me.......in China......communism is doing quite well and wall street LOVES them.

In fairness, though, doesn't China's recent success owe a lot to policies, under Deng Xiaoping and his successors, that made the economy much more market-oriented?

It`s still a top down communist system with the government subsidizing/controlling/directing their biggest businesses and the economy.

And the Chi-coms are just as "godless" as ever.....which is the point of the thread.

I lol when I hear republicans/anti communists chortle on about how awful the godless communist are but have no problem doing business with them.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 8:33:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

Ok, so... I've heard a number of people lately screaming about "Godless Communism". Yes, they are mostly anti-Obama tea party knuckledraggers, but I digress.

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

I've also heard the idea that "it doesnt work". How do you know it doesnt? Sure, the Soviet Union went under, but they also bankrupted themselves by fighting in Afghanistan for almost 10 years after a period of worldwide economic stagnation (sound familiar?).

"Communism is anti-religious". Well, ok, to some extent this is true. Granted, the USSR and PRC never had a friendly relationship with beleivers, however if you ask most American communists, they would agree that a persons beleifs are their buisness. As far a Marx calling religion "The opiate of the masses", well, do these right wing bible thumping types seem like sane and rational people to you?

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

I would hang with a bible thumper before I would hang with some godless dweeb who could justify killing me for a klondike bar.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/21/2012 10:32:49 PM

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quote:

I would hang with a bible thumper before I would hang with some godless dweeb who could justify killing me for a klondike bar.

Nobody wants that sweaty blue lint covered ice cream bar...
Cept maybe...

Aw Hell ... All Hail Marx and Lennon

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by SternSkipper -- 5/21/2012 10:35:07 PM >

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Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.

Tinfoilers Swallow

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RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 3:10:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

Ok, so... I've heard a number of people lately screaming about "Godless Communism". Yes, they are mostly anti-Obama tea party knuckledraggers, but I digress.

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

I've also heard the idea that "it doesnt work". How do you know it doesnt? Sure, the Soviet Union went under, but they also bankrupted themselves by fighting in Afghanistan for almost 10 years after a period of worldwide economic stagnation (sound familiar?).

"Communism is anti-religious". Well, ok, to some extent this is true. Granted, the USSR and PRC never had a friendly relationship with beleivers, however if you ask most American communists, they would agree that a persons beleifs are their buisness. As far a Marx calling religion "The opiate of the masses", well, do these right wing bible thumping types seem like sane and rational people to you?

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

nothing "scares" me about it. i'm all for letting what works work.

but it's failed the world over, not just the Soviets. Even the Chinese have switched to a market economy and encourage small scale capitalism, which is driving the growth of their middle class. same direction in Cuba.

it has been an excuse for dictatorships, which tend to kill their own people, as opposed to "democracies" which tend to kill people in other countries. given that choice, i guess i would pick democracy for obvious self-serving reasons.

re religion - communism has always suppressed the right of people to be free and freely worship as they please. more so than democracies. i don't care much about organized religion, but think it's vital for others to be able to care about it if they so choose.

i challenge you to honestly dispute any of the above.

_____________________________

[Awaiting Approval]

If my experience level makes you feel superior, that is your problem, not mine.

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 5:05:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

You need to look carefully at the history of farm collectivism, gulag imprisonment, deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians by the Soviets; the re-eucation and forced farm labor of intellectuals in the PRC and Cambodia. You will find your answer in that history.

I would add an image that's haunted me ever since learning about it in sixth grade. After World War II, divided Berlin became something of a microcosm for competing philosophies. People in East Berlin were so determined to flee Communist rule that the regime literally had to build a wall to keep folks in..

dcnovice; if you ever have the time and inclination to read the full story of the Wall and the people who tried to escape let me suggest Berlin 1961: Kennedy, Khrushchev, and the Most Dangerous Place on Earth by Frederick Kempe. I visited the wall a year or two after it came down. One sector remained, bearing the work of various Eruopean artists. It was quite an amazing experience.

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:05:24 AM

YSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

What I would like to know is, what IS it that scares people so badly about it? Sure, I've heard the argument that "communism has killed hundreds of millions of people", however, so has capitalism. Many times over, as a matter of fact.

You need to look carefully at the history of farm collectivism, gulag imprisonment, deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians by the Soviets; the re-eucation and forced farm labor of intellectuals in the PRC and Cambodia. You will find your answer in that history.

But how does that differ from the US forcing Native Americans onto reservations and starving them? Or the Penal Laws the British imposed in Ireland? How do these anti-intellectual movements in PRC and Cambodia differ from the anti-intellectual movement of the right that's been going on for the last 30 years or so in this country?

Cambodia has never been a Socialist country. Pol Pot was NOT a communist, he was an oppertunist, saying whatever people thought they wanted to hear from him. Also, China has not been Socialist since the death of Mao, it has been state capitalist.

However, you also cannot tell me that Socialism doesnt work. It turned Russia, China, Vietnam, etc, from mostly agricultural societies to industrial powerhouses. The real problem, that I have seen, is that the governments of these countries found it nessecary to practice socialism from above (dictatorship), rather than from below (domocratically) which is how it was ment to be. Socialism from below can work, but it requires working-class solidarity, something not seen in this country since the 1930s until now, thanks to the Occupy movement and the resurgance of the labor movement.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:12:20 AM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

It doesn't work.

That and it kills lots and lots of people.

Some of us think that gulags are bad.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to YSG)

RE: "Godless Communism"! - 5/22/2012 6:14:39 AM

YSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG

So there you have it. What is it that scares you about the communist ideaology?

It doesn't work.

That and it kills lots and lots of people.

Some of us think that gulags are bad.

Again, capitalism has killed more people. Also, were the internment camps of WWII acceptable? At the time, they were.

_____________________________

Our duty is to hold ourselves responsible to the people. Every word, every act and every policy must conform to the people's interests, and if mistakes occur, they must be corrected - that is what being responsible to the people means- Mao Zedong

(in reply to Aylee)

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