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Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/3/2004 6:43:23 AM   
Gabrielle


Posts: 34
Joined: 3/27/2004
Status: offline 		"Women are equal to men!" "Women deserve the same respect!" "I can hold the door myself-thank you!" "How dare you offer me your coat." How dare you stand as I leave the table?" "How dare you even think I NEED you for my own self-worth!" "Women deserve equal pay for equal work!"

I only agree with one of these statments. The last one. In today's society, a dual- income family is often necessary. Women are deciding to have careers before family and marriage. I respect this whole-heartedly and think if a woman has taken the time to educate herself, she deserves equal pay for equal work. .............But the rest....is called feminism and it has become a way to degrade ourselves, to say we are less than the man, and to give men an excuse to NOT BE men.

Before feminism, a woman was happy to have a man take care of her. Was flattered to have a man show respect by offering his coat, holding a door, standing as she rises. This was a man's way of saying "I respect you, I think highly of you, you are of worth and value to me." Why on earth have women as a whole taken these forms of high compliments away from themselves?

We have told men, through our holier than thou attitudes that it is okay to step back and not take full responsibility for their women and their homes. We have done this by saying, "I can do this as good as you, if not better, so let me!" Why? It is offensive to have a man dote on you? Is it offensive to have a man pledge his life and effort to the care and well-being of the woman he loves? He is not saying you CAN"T do these things, he is saying HE WANTS to do them for you. What is wrong with that? Now we tell him we don't want it, so he doesn't try as hard. His manlihood is rejected and he will then feel not appreciated. He will get comfortable in not having to do all he can to cater to your needs and wants and then be resentful when you expect him to!

Any woman who knows herself and knows her womanlihood, knows that she holds more power than any man. Any man who is honest with himself, recognizes this as well. Why else would he rearrange his world, work his tail off, and be happy doing so. Because he puts his love above himself. If this isn't power of a woman I don't know what is.

Even in the D/s relationship, this it true. When a Dom has committed his life to training his sub, to guiding her, to correcting her, to rewarding her, he has committed his soul as well. She defines him. She is his shadow. She is his echo. She is the imprint left behind him. She represents him in all ways. Without her, he is nothing.

But he must be a MAN! He must be strong enough. Know himself. Be sure of his love, and devotion, just as he is sure of his skill with a single-tail or a knife. He must be confident and able in order to win the trust of his sub. When a man is a good strong MAN in all areas of life, he will win the submission of a good woman. As long as she isn't blinded by this so called feminism.

Ladies, we had more power as "second" in the relationship. We had more respect. We had more happiness. Because even then, we knew we were first.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/3/2004 7:10:25 AM   
belongtoyou


Posts: 168
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gabrielle

"Women are equal to men!" "Women deserve the same respect!" "I can hold the door myself-thank you!" "How dare you offer me your coat." How dare you stand as I leave the table?" "How dare you even think I NEED you for my own self-worth!" "Women deserve equal pay for equal work!"

I only agree with one of these statments. The last one. In today's society, a dual- income family is often necessary. Women are deciding to have careers before family and marriage. I respect this whole-heartedly and think if a woman has taken the time to educate herself, she deserves equal pay for equal work. .............But the rest....is called feminism and it has become a way to degrade ourselves, to say we are less than the man, and to give men an excuse to NOT BE men.
Before feminism, a woman was happy to have a man take care of her. Was flattered to have a man show respect by offering his coat, holding a door, standing as she rises. This was a man's way of saying "I respect you, I think highly of you, you are of worth and value to me." Why on earth have women as a whole taken these forms of high compliments away from themselves?

We have told men, through our holier than thou attitudes that it is okay to step back and not take full responsibility for their women and their homes. We have done this by saying, "I can do this as good as you, if not better, so let me!" Why? It is offensive to have a man dote on you? Is it offensive to have a man pledge his life and effort to the care and well-being of the woman he loves? He is not saying you CAN"T do these things, he is saying HE WANTS to do them for you. What is wrong with that? Now we tell him we don't want it, so he doesn't try as hard. His manlihood is rejected and he will then feel not appreciated. He will get comfortable in not having to do all he can to cater to your needs and wants and then be resentful when you expect him to!

Any woman who knows herself and knows her womanlihood, knows that she holds more power than any man. Any man who is honest with himself, recognizes this as well. Why else would he rearrange his world, work his tail off, and be happy doing so. Because he puts his love above himself. If this isn't power of a woman I don't know what is.

Even in the D/s relationship, this it true. When a Dom has committed his life to training his sub, to guiding her, to correcting her, to rewarding her, he has committed his soul as well. She defines him. She is his shadow. She is his echo. She is the imprint left behind him. She represents him in all ways. Without her, he is nothing.

But he must be a MAN! He must be strong enough. Know himself. Be sure of his love, and devotion, just as he is sure of his skill with a single-tail or a knife. He must be confident and able in order to win the trust of his sub. When a man is a good strong MAN in all areas of life, he will win the submission of a good woman. As long as she isn't blinded by this so called feminism.

Ladies, we had more power as "second" in the relationship. We had more respect. We had more happiness. Because even then, we knew we were first.


Whoa there! First of all, let's not romanitize the past!! There were many many many women who were NOT: happy nor respected "before feminism." (there have ALWAYS been women who stand up for themselves!)

Back in the "good old days" most women were NOT ABLE nor allowed to make decisions for themselves> this goes way beyond opening doors etc.
Women were often treated like children who had no minds- they were not "worth" education, they had few choices of the type of work that they wanted to do, and furthermore they were often DISrespected by society.
Think of this, most women were told that the ONLY reason for them to go to college was so that they could earn their "MRS." - to find a husband and get married.
Before that, women were not considered "intelligent enough" to vote!! Do you believe these things are still true?

Women have, throughout history, have often had to bear the brunt of work and family life, as many *MEN* did not feel they were obligated in any way to take responsibilty of their partner nor they children they bore.

Also, you assume in your discussion of an "ideal" D/s relationship, that the MAN is the dominant, and the woman submissive. What about others in this lifestyle where the WOMAN is the dominant and the man is submissive? OR if both the Dom and sub are of the same sex? So, how then do "the good old days" affect them?

i, for one, am happy to be feminist. Just because i am a sub, does not mean i am a doormat without a brain. i have, obviously, very strong opinions about many things, i am passionate, intelligent, hardworking, and i certainly do respect myself. i think feminism has ALLOWED me to express my sexual desires and ALLOWED me the freedom to choose how i want to define myself. Do i want to get a PhD and become a surgeon, no, but can i choose to do so? Yes. If i was a Dominant woman, then I would be responsible for the care and well-being of my sub. Period.

(steps off the soap box) i'll leave it at that, for now.

~rain~

(in reply to Gabrielle)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/3/2004 7:52:05 AM   
Gabrielle


Posts: 34
Joined: 3/27/2004
Status: offline 		rain,

you make excellent points about women concerning society as a whole. My post was geared primarily towards a personal relationship between a man and woman.

I refer to the ideal D/s relationship as being with the man being a Dominant. This is ideal for me and others like me. I do not disregard or disrespect the other side of the coin. It is just not for me.

And it has been my experience that GOOD man, a man who knows and understands his place in the home, is a man who will step up and take an active postition in all aspects of the family.

My point is, and perhaps I should have been more clear, that women do not need to put themselves on a pedastal, we have already been put there by men who choose to love and care for us.

And that feminism has given men an excuse to be lazy. They feel that they do not need to work as hard, because the women are saying we do not need them to.

Granted, this does not refer to ALL men, just the weak ones.

(in reply to belongtoyou)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/3/2004 8:34:34 AM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		A pedestal is as much a prison as any other small space. I forget whom I'm quoting.

_____________________________

When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

(in reply to Gabrielle)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/3/2004 8:54:18 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		"Why? It is offensive to have a man dote on you? Is it offensive to have a man pledge his life and effort to the care and well-being of the woman he loves? He is not saying you CAN"T do these things, he is saying HE WANTS to do them for you."

well, often this kind of 'deference' -is- implying the woman can't do it for herself. perhaps the man himself isn't impling it, but by allowing women to be treated as weaker (that is, standing when she enters, giving her seats, etc) society is allowed to continue with this vauge assumption that women somehow need preferential treatment.

"And that feminism has given men an excuse to be lazy. They feel that they do not need to work as hard, because the women are saying we do not need them to. "

AMEN. and, in my opinion, that's exactly how it should be. why should men be obligated to work harder than they do? why should -men- be expected to work hard, period?

"But he must be a MAN! He must be strong enough."

why must men be strong? this is an arbitrary gendered-based requirement. yes, men are generally phsycially stronger than most women. there are -no- scientific proofs that show he is emotionally stronger, nor that he is somehow a better man if he is.

i personally believe that gender should not come into play in the way one acts or is judged by society. feminism allows me to be as strong or as weak as i see fit, and it allows my (male) partner the same priviledge. we've worked out within our relationship how we want that dynamic to work, not based on our genders but based on the ways we intereact. the same is true when i am with a female partner.

(rain)"Back in the "good old days" most women were NOT ABLE nor allowed to make decisions for themselves> this goes way beyond opening doors etc.

that's exactly my point. if a women chooses to allow a man to open doors for her, etc, that's -great- but she has chosen it. before the women's movement, i would not have been allowed to choose. that is what i value about feminism. the way it has given me (mostly) the freedom to live my life as i see fit, as well as given other women the same right. i choose to refuse to allow men to make gestures of "respect" that imply my own weakness. other's choose to accept such gestures in the spirit in which they were offered. this is not a bad thing, live your life as you see fit.

however, don't deny that the fact that women can make these choices having been refused them in the past, -is- a product of feminism and the women's movement.

(in reply to iwillserveu)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/3/2004 11:01:38 PM   
belongtoyou


Posts: 168
Joined: 1/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: perverseangelic

i personally believe that gender should not come into play in the way one acts or is judged by society. feminism allows me to be as strong or as weak as i see fit, and it allows my (male) partner the same priviledge.

however, don't deny that the fact that women can make these choices having been refused them in the past, -is- a product of feminism and the women's movement.


Well put!

~rain~

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/21/2004 4:56:11 AM   
MistressDREAD


Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
I totally agree with Your words Gabrielle
and have always appreciated the Man whom
I choose to stand behind as well as the man
I choose to stand infront of, and those whom
choose Me.
I also agree with belongtoyou and comming from
a third world country I can tell you that what you
discribe still exsists today right out side this Countrys
(USA) boarders.

OMGAWDDDDD iwillserveu HAHAHAHA talk about braggin
way to cute........cant wait to hear Lady Becketts brag..

(in reply to Gabrielle)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/21/2004 11:40:27 AM   
relay


Posts: 18
Joined: 4/21/2004
Status: offline 		The primary reason that feminism requires debunking is that feminism is not about women. It is not for women. Feminism is about power and the political agenda of a small group of women who use women for their pawns very much as Hitler used the german people to gain his personal goals. Feminism is based upon a lie . There is a significant difference between men and women and feminism tries to ignore or attack the difference. Books like "men are from mars" and women are from venus" document the differences in even the method of thinking and communicating that men and women have. Other differences include the female `s natural tendency to nurture that males just do not have. Children are in essential need of this nuturing, which feminism is intent on removing. Men are inherently more aggresive than women these differences are real but feminism because an admission of this reality would destroy their movement refuses to see them. Since all their claims are based on a rejection of fact , feminism is always destined to come to false conclusions. Feminism is a cruel religion, it is cruel to women not men, it places women into positions that most women are not equipped to handle and allows them to be abused raped or even murdered because of where they have gone. For example the military is clearly an unsafe place for a woman even in peace time, but feminism is pushing hard to increase the numbers of women in this dangerous world of ours. Feminists have no concern whatsoever for these women even though they know that with the absense of men arround enemy men will not treat the women pow in the same manner. Their only concern is to extend their power and furthering their philosophy. Feminism is antagonistic to children in the extreme. Children get in the way of the feminist agenda. Whenever something gets in their way they use the power of the goverment to insure that the obstruction gets run over, The feminists are happy when they can eliminate the problem of children early on like through abortion which they fight so hard for. Ever wonder why there is not alot of feminists against abortion? no it`s not because they want to give the woman a choice. If the woman has the abortion she will think differently about having another child , depression of killing an unborn and all the negativity that comes with it will make her focus more on work and populate the female presence in the corporate world and this cannot possibly tie her down to a homemaker role. Something they detest. If that fails they attempt to push children into daycare centers where mothers can avoid the task of actually raising and loving their children. Have you heard the feminist motto.. " a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" If that is not a clear declaration on the institution of marriage i don`t know what is.. For this reason alone feminism is not compatible with civilization. No civilization is possible without families no matter how much the scientists come up with clones and test tube babies. Families are where children learn civilized behavior. The weaker the families become the more temporary they become. Feminism is a dagger aimed right at the heart of families, if that dagger is successfully placed, then our civilization is bound to fail and be eventually terminated, something so stupid like that which feminists arrogantly refuse to acknowledge ...sigh....! Does this sound like "Hitler" once again? remember he started with the Jews but that`s as far as he got, who knows who is next targets were ? Feminism is not about equality because we always need a balance of strong and weak. Feminism is a poison and it has been polluting our world for 30 years, it`s end is near , and i`m glad.. I say this whole-heartedly when i mention the fact that one good thing came out of this movement, women of today are more educated and have better schooling than those of the 70`s so now they can finally see for themselves what Feminism really stands for and not be manipulated from their own gender !

(in reply to Gabrielle)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/21/2004 3:01:52 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Well said relay!

(in reply to relay)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/21/2004 10:11:59 PM   
rain


Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: relay

Feminism is about power and the political agenda of a small group of women who use women for their pawns very much as Hitler used the german people to gain his personal goals.

Are you kidding me with that? Comparing feminism to Hitler! Feminism is NOT GENOCIDE!

Feminism is based upon a lie . Feminism is a cruel religion, it is cruel to women not men, it places women into positions that most women are not equipped to handle and allows them to be abused raped or even murdered because of where they have gone.

There have been feminists since the begining of time, my friend. If it wasn't for feminism, women wouldn't have the right to vote, go to college, get an education, or be able to live without financially depending on a man. Not to mention which, many men have NOT fulfilled THEIR familial obligations, leaving women folk to fend for themselves and their children, by working, struggling, and doing the best they can to survive! (also, your comments are heterosexist, b/c you assume all women are straight). Might i remind you that historically, society has depended on women to do "men's work" in manufacturing, and work which required rigorous physical labor.

And feminism allows women to get raped? Surely you jest! Women have been getting raped by their husbands, boyfriends, lovers, partners for centuries, even the "good little" homemakers! i don't think feminism "allows" that at all; in fact b/c so many women have fought for their rights, to be treated as a human being, (heaven forbid!) and protect themselves from "aggressive men."

Feminism is antagonistic to children in the extreme. The feminists are happy when they can eliminate the problem of children early on like through abortion which they fight so hard for. Personally, i don't know anyone who was "happy" to have an abortion. I"VE had an abortion, and it was not an easy decision to make. Yes, we used a condom, it broke, we were young, we were in school and had no money. Would it have been better for us to drop out of school, make minimum wage forever, and wind up resenting the child, or not having enough money to feed the child, maybe have to go on welfare? That wasn't the right decision for US, my partner and i had lengthy discussions before making that choice, do i regret having an abortion? Never.

Ever wonder why there is not alot of feminists against abortion? no it`s not because they want to give the woman a choice. If the woman has the abortion she will think differently about having another child , depression of killing an unborn and all the negativity that comes with it will make her focus more on work and populate the female presence in the corporate world and this cannot possibly tie her down to a homemaker role. Something they detest.

Again, i disagree. There are many feminists who are more than happy to stay at home, take care of the kids, and keep house. Feminism allowed (s) women to MAKE A CHOICE as to whether they want and/or can afford to stay at home. Many families these days REQUIRE two incomes.

If that fails they attempt to push children into daycare centers where mothers can avoid the task of actually raising and loving their children. - And men don't play a role in taking care of children? My brother-in-law is a stay at home dad b/c he can't keep a job, which forces my sister to be the breadwinner in the family! Let's not forget that the very men that straight women are supposed to rely upon also have problems, alcoholism, mental illness, drug addiction, and may be incapable of holding down a job. What then? Should we resort to making women live like they did under the Taliban rule? Women are not permitted to work, men leave them, (die or whatever) and they are forced to beg for moldy food crumbs to feed their child while they themselves starve to death?

Have you heard the feminist motto.. " a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" If that is not a clear declaration on the institution of marriage i don`t know what is.. For this reason alone feminism is not compatible with civilization. Without feminism, we would NOT be a civilized society!

Feminism is a dagger aimed right at the heart of families, if that dagger is successfully placed, then our civilization is bound to fail and be eventually terminated, something so stupid like that which feminists arrogantly refuse to acknowledge ...sigh....! Does this sound like "Hitler" once again? remember he started with the Jews but that`s as far as he got, who knows who is next targets were ?

If you feel THAT threatened, then there is something wrong with you. There is no relation between feminism and Hitler. However, i do see a coorelation between fundamentalist Christians and Hitler.

Feminism is not about equality because we always need a balance of strong and weak. That being said, should we resort to enslavement of black folks from Africa and the Carribean too, so that the white folks can feel "strong?"

Feminism is a poison and it has been polluting our world for 30 years, it`s end is near, what in God's name makes you think that?

and i`m glad.. I say this whole-heartedly when i mention the fact that one good thing came out of this movement, women of today are more educated and have better schooling than those of the 70`s so now they can finally see for themselves what Feminism really stands for and not be manipulated from their own gender !


Oh please! So women should resort to being disrespected, shit on, and producing children until their death? Hmm, i'll pass thanks.

I wonder how one can even have these attitudes and be into BDSM. Your beliefs appear to be more in sync with Fundamentalist Christians, who would most assuredly have YOU stoned for your interest and participation in BDSM!

and Estring: et tu Brutus? (i did have a great deal of respect for you, but alas....no more, it's one thing to be a Republican, but really!).

~rain~

_____________________________

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today. - James Dean

(in reply to relay)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/22/2004 6:11:42 AM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		This has long been one of my pet peeves. I am a Feminist, and will contend that Feminism has long been misunderstood and largely stereotyped, as so many things have been. Women have always been the center (heart) of the home, family, community. We have always represented strength, nurturing, caring, healing, stability, and wisdom. Within our respective family units, we have different skills. Gender aside, we wouldn't have the cook work on the car, or the accountant doing the needlework.

Feminism is not about being "tough" as a female and opening your own door, etc. I am a Lady, with doors opened for me, chairs held for me, etc. It is about value. When I recognize and accept my own value, I therefore recognize and accept the value of others. It is also (as rain said) about not being a "doormat". Realistically, if a woman is doing the same job a male is doing, then she should get the same recognition and the same monetary compensation/benefits. She should also receive the same consideration for promotion, based on her knowledge, skills, performance, and interaction with the team (if applicable). However, it also about choice. Being a lawyer, or a doctor, a grocery store clerk, or a Homemaker, Dominant, or submissive. It is all about choice! Not necessarily based on gender.

Gabrielle, you are speaking from the position of "second" in a relationship, while I'm not familiar with that position I am not at all uncomfortable with a male offering his coat on a chilly evening, but I take pride in the fact that I have my own. Feminism is about freedom of choice, the recognition of personal value, and we should never let go of that.



_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to Gabrielle)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/22/2004 11:37:04 AM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett
Feminism is about freedom of choice, the recognition of personal value, and we should never let go of that.



-that- is what i believe as well. and i'm going to fight to retain that choice my entire life.

relay, i don't even know how to reply to your post. i guess i think you're defining feminism in a way that is so narrow as to remove most feminists. sure, some feminists are like that. as a whole, that is not what the modern women's movement is, however.
heck, i won't deny there are biological differences between men and women. that much is obvious. however, i see no reason to treat people differently because of those biological differences. especially when it comes to law.

< Message edited by perverseangelic -- 4/22/2004 11:37:36 AM >

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/22/2004 2:14:08 PM   
relay


Posts: 18
Joined: 4/21/2004
Status: offline 		There is no femenist agenda? This alone deflects critisism about the activities being conducted on their behalf. Movements don`t exist without agendas my dear nor can they be effective without a fairly high degree of uniformity among their supporters. As for you`re response that women are always the ones on the recieving end of domestic violence that`s a bunch of crock ! The media says that 1 in 4 women will be physically assaulted at some point in their lifetime we are not told this includes "feeling afraid" and verbal abuse. we are not told the length of the "lifetime or average age nor the form of domestic violence. Statistically it is meaningless. It is as useful as asserting that i in 4 gardners will injure themselves doing gardening at some point in their lifetime ! It`s end is near because our population is changing, the gender race is becoming too largely divided on many issues and the gender gap is widening at an alarming pace. As of today there are 105 men born for every 101 women in the world and the numbers are more significant in undeveloped countries like India who already has 40 million more men than women . In China the rate is much higher at 117 men for every 101 women and by the year 2020 they too will have 40 million more men than women. Unfortunately this will become a serious problem for men and have some kind of horrific impact somewhere down the line because of the shortage of women ! In the end it is the volume in numbers who will always speak louder than any words possibly can ! And with less women to carry the torch for feminism the flame will undoubtedly be shutt off for good !

(in reply to rain)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/22/2004 3:11:59 PM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline 		It doesn't sound to me like you like women very much, in general, relay. Be that the case or not, IMNSHO you are still way off the mark where Feminists are concerned. No one has ever said that Women are the only victims of domestic violence. Neither do we, the public, need to be told that domestic "abuse" includes verbal and mental abuse as well as physical abuse.
However, the Feminist position is not based on Domestic violence/abuse. There was a time when women valued, respected, and honored other women. Bonds were formed and nurtured. Self esteem among women was a given because their support structure was so strong. Those bonds are once again being formed and nurtured. That flame that you speak of, relay, burns brighter than ever. The Feminist movement has gained some influential male support over the last decade. I wouldn't look for the "torch" to go out any time soon.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to relay)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/22/2004 5:47:18 PM   
rain


Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline 		Very well put, LadyBeckett.

Interestingly, relay, you did not respond to much of anything i had to say.
And i agree with LadyBeckett that it sounds like you have a problem with women in general.

i can't help but wonder what kind of relationship (if any) you have with the women in your family.

Take care of yourself.

~rain~

_____________________________

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today. - James Dean

(in reply to LadyBeckett)
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RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/22/2004 6:04:42 PM   
nysub29


Posts: 12
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		In regards to feminism i think a lot of society feels that when we elevate one group of people we do it at the expense of another. For instance the feminist agenda is seen as promoting one group (women) at the cost of another group (men). i think we find this argument holds some weight also in regards to minorities in general. The agenda of promoting people of color is sometimes seen by others as having a negative impact on the majority.
Ideally one would hope we could elevate one group without devaluing another. But then you could take this argument into other avenues. Women are a minority and have been treated that way thoughout. i think its about enpowerment. Having control over their lives, a control they never had before.
The interesting thing too is a lot of women are forfeiting their careers to return home and raise their families. i think the satisfaction for them however lies in having the choice to return home and not being told that is where they must be. i think thats what freedom is, for better or worse, its about choices and having the ability to choose. i dont believe it relates only to one group and not all.
The other interesting thing too is our hyper competitive culture. We see everything in terms of winning and losing. Social topics or debates are described as races or wars and its really neither. i suppose we feel if one group is winning, another group must be losing. i dont see that as the case at all.

< Message edited by nysub29 -- 4/22/2004 7:12:29 PM >

(in reply to rain)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/22/2004 7:52:32 PM   
rain


Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for your input, nysub29.

For any feminist, male or female: you may be interested in this link:

http://www.marchforwomen.org/about/index.php - This is a march in Washington, DC taking place this Sunday.

i'll be there, as will my friends and family. Hope some of you all can make it!

Cheers,

~rain~

_____________________________

Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today. - James Dean

(in reply to nysub29)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/23/2004 4:00:02 AM   
londonswitch


Posts: 77
Joined: 3/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Movements don`t exist without agendas my dear nor can they be effective without a fairly high degree of uniformity among their supporters.


Monotheism seems to be doing OK without an agenda the last 3.5k years. Last time I looked, the big three were still there in their myriad infinities - the Christians, the Muslims and the Jews. And we all get to rip eah other to pieces over the differences in the same movement. Ah, like this thread.

quote:

As for you're response that women are always the ones on the recieving end of domestic violence that`s a bunch of crock !

I re-read rain's posts and can't find that assertion. Mind you, I am multi-tasking. Talking of tasks, I would take this author to task for such debating language: 'a bunch of crock' is not a constructive/informative comment on another's opinion or fact giving.

quote:

The media says that 1 in 4 women will be physically assaulted at some point in their lifetime we are not told this includes "feeling afraid" and verbal abuse. we are not told the length of the "lifetime or average age nor the form of domestic violence. Statistically it is meaningless.


How this is feminism's fault I fail to understand from the argument presented or preceeding. Our police statistics in the UK have somewhat similar assault figures, and our universities psychology departments have often borne out your assertion of fear of crime.

The media in the UK say 'WIBBLE! PANIC! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!! COME HERE AND HAVE YOUR A/B/C/D DYSTOPIC VISION CONFIRMED. LOOK AT THIS PICTURE OF A NAKED/FAMOUS/YOUNG/BEAUTIFUL WOMAN! LOOK AT THIS OTHER WOMAN, SHE'S NAKED TOO AND SHE'S A TART. THERE'S A WAR ON, BUT DON'T WORRY! HERE'S THE SPORT!!' oops, got carried away. enjoyed that.

The same uni's also have good data on the lifetime abuse. I refer you to the London Metropolitan Universities Women's studies unit. Wonderfully of course, in the last 130 years, the actual murder rates have come down in the home in the UK so that we can expect only 100 woman to die this year at their male partners hands. Such progress....

25% as a figure is not statistically meaningless, it is a crude calculation of risk. 'Statisically meaningless' for a risk calculation would require a too-small sample to be a true statement. The numbers in the data are high and are a statistically significant sample. I'm very happy to discuss interpretation of studies published in peer-reviewed journals with anyone. We would of course need to see if there is selection bias or sampling error which render study conclusions invalid.

quote:

As of today there are 105 men born for every 101 women in the world and the numbers are more significant in undeveloped countries like India who already has 40 million more men than women . In China the rate is much higher at 117 men for every 101 women and by the year 2020 they too will have 40 million more men than women.


If I ever saw an argument for the need for feminism it is these figures, Here it be. The figures presented are aligned with reputable ones, though not sourced in this argument.

There has always been a slightly higher number of females carried to term and delivered successfully than men. Who knows why. We know why the numbers in developing countries are skewed. Where there is enough cash, a female foetus can be chosen against on gender bias grounds - and terminated. Where there is no money, an unwanted female must be carried to term unknowingly and delivered safely. If she is not wanted, the breast milk for her can be passed on to other slected children. She can be exposed, neglected, or actively killed if a girl-child is not wanted. While often this happens around birth, neglect especially can be used as a selection tool for many years after birth. This is the cause of disparities in the gender numbers in various cohorts of the populations you mention. Feminism in low-income countries is even more a matter of life and death than for me.

quote:

Unfortunately this will become a serious problem for men and have some kind of horrific impact somewhere down the line because of the shortage of women ! In the end it is the volume in numbers who will always speak louder than any words possibly can ! And with less women to carry the torch for feminism the flame will undoubtedly be shutt off for good !


I'm not feeling very scared about this. Will the hordes of excess Chinese males kill my great-great-great-great granddaughter before or after global warming gets her? I think I'll engage with this other such apocolyptic notion by creating a legacy for successor generations without issuing dire and non-specific warnings. In fact, I'll give a virtual prize to anyone who can come up with the most extremely entertaining apocolyptic vision of the impact of the gender disparity. I mean what if all those extra men are subbies in bed and out?? *laugh*

FEMINISM

"One type involves those who think women will only be free when they equal men in all their vices. This is called feminism... But compañeras, do we really want to smoke cigarettes? [The other type is] women being respected as human beings, who can solve problems and participate in everything-- culture, art, literature, politics, trade-unionism-- a liberation that means our opinion is respected at home and outside the home." Domitila Barrios de la Chungara, 1975

"Third World feminism is about feeding people in all their hungers." Cherrie Moraga, 1983

I'm bored of being serious. How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? Sixteen. One to change it, and fifteen to form a support group.

How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? Four. One to change it, and three to write about its exploitation.

How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? That's not funny :-)

Estring, please tell me a joke to remind me why I virtually love you, you great hunk of range-riding, republican buffing manliness.

< Message edited by londonswitch -- 4/23/2004 12:05:07 PM >

(in reply to relay)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/23/2004 4:01:10 AM   
londonswitch


Posts: 77
Joined: 3/1/2004
Status: offline 		I am with you in spirit on Sunday, rain.

(in reply to rain)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Feminism-an excuse for men - 4/23/2004 4:22:29 AM   
LadyBeckett


Posts: 865
Joined: 2/4/2004
From: Scotland/Tennessee
Status: offline
quote:

How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? That's not funny :-)

I laughed! lol
You are beautiful, brilliant, and funny! How often does that happen??? lol It goes well with chai latte' on a Friday morning, Thank you.

_____________________________

Lady Beckett

_______________________________________________

"Submissive boys yearn to fall into their proper place, so the rest of their life will." ~ Lady Beckett

(in reply to londonswitch)
Profile   Post #: 20
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