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RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/19/2012 4:12:14 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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OK fine. I'll ignore the freudian terminology. I'm OK with the idea that there is some moral center, some practical center, and some hedonism center there inside our psyche's. It's the interactions between them which I feel he horribly simplified.

Do you, as a dominant, feel that you take the place of your submissives super-ego? What experiences are you willing to share if you have 'superceded' the super-ego of your submissive? Do you believe that the take-over of your submissives super-ego can be reversed and what process do you think would need to be put into place to reintroduce super-ego into a submissive who has transferred that influence to you?
If what you mean by this is have I tried to replace Carol's sense of right and wrong with my own, absolutely. It's a requirement of being mine. "What Jeff thinks is good, IS good.". I don't think there is anything which needs to be reversed. Her super-ego is still functioning just fine. It's not like it got turned off somehow. Rather, she just takes input from me in that area and obeys... just like any other physical act. Just like physical acts, all that would happen if I stopped issuing such commands is she'd revert to whatever ethical stances she felt were appropriate.

For me personally this seemed as obvious as the sunrise. My big "experience" with it was that it was not obvious and extraordinarily rare in practice. All in all, I find this HIGHLY uncommon in the BDSM community... enough so that it's on my list of "stuff not to be talked about" in polite company. This is just one of those things which doesn't follow the BDSM script so it ends up tipping sacred cows.

My other experiences ... well... those are "not to be talked about" in this venue. I reserve conversations on this topic for face to face meetings over a coffee table.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 21

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/19/2012 4:20:37 PM

LadyHibiscus

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I will be honest, Jeff, that "perfectly obvious" thing absolutely chills my blood. For reasons that I suspect I don't have to mention here.

I don't fault you for wanting what you want, and getting it, I am just glad you use your powers for good.

_____________________________

[page 23 girl]

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 22

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/19/2012 4:51:07 PM

Whiplashsmile4

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I really don't believe in all this Id, Ego and Super-Ego stuff to begin with... so I ignore it.

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 23

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/19/2012 5:13:53 PM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
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I admit I love Master's ego lol

It sends shivers down my spine when he's like that and reminds me in different ways that what Master wants Master gets, that Master is always right and if he says it's good, it's good.

Attachment (1)

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Everything has changed

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Post #: 24

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/19/2012 10:01:55 PM

RemoteUser

Posts: 2854
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

If, as a dominant, you are interested in removal/reduction of your submissive partners ego, what are the steps you take to remove/lessen the ego of your submissive while allowing them to maintain uniqueness? How do you feel stripping away the 'reality' part of the mind helps/hurts the structure of your dynamic? Does control of the Id outweigh your propensity to have the desire to strip or lessen the ego or super-ego?

Freud wrote "... the installation of the super-ego can be described as a successful instance of identification with the parental agency..."

Do you, as a dominant, feel that you take the place of your submissives super-ego? What experiences are you willing to share if you have 'superceded' the super-ego of your submissive? Do you believe that the take-over of your submissives super-ego can be reversed and what process do you think would need to be put into place to reintroduce super-ego into a submissive who has transfered that influence to you?

As a submissive interested in removal/reduction of your ego, what techniques would work to allow you to achieve such a result? Do you feel that stripping your super-ego is necessary for a successful D/s or M/s relationship? How would or does that effect your daily interactions with your partner? How does that impact on your interactions with others outside of your personal dynamic?

eta: Question for switches.. (and feel free to answer any of the above as the mood strikes you!) - how does being a switch temper any motivation (if it does) to reduce/remove ego, control id or supercede your partners super-ego? I would love to see the answer to this question in conjunction with some of the others. (I'm nosy that way!)

* feel free to use standard dictionary definitions of id, ego and super-ego or to explain what you would mean by an alternative definition so we can all stay on the same page and understand one another

The id keeps you alive; the ego sets you free; the superego tempers freedom with moral character.

Using those definitions, I see no point in suppressing the ego. I don't want to dictate her desires to her; influence, yes. Sexually I want her to please me and be pleased by doing so; but I don't want to control her favourite colour of shoe, or her choice of book to read. I want to strike a balance between myself and her. She already strives to do this in several ways that I've noticed. I am both proud of her for taking these steps and mindfully respectful. If there are things she needs from me, I will work with her because her happiness is very important to me.

I also don't need to tell her right from wrong. She's a smart girl. If I ever disagree with her on a moral issue, I suppose we'll share our thoughts like adults, but in the end it's not about the "right" view. I respect her, so I would be more than willing to share a different outlook with her, but not replace her belief system. She's my partner and my friend, and if she gives me more I would accept it graciously, but not demand it.

I would also say that it's possible to try and usurp a person's moral centre and/or dictate their primal urges, and it sounds all nice and kinky, but in the context of this discussion it would be wiping a person out. Until the day she kneels and asks me to do so, I have no motive to justify the act; and if she did, and truly wanted it, then yes, I might do so, because it can be done if that is what she truly desires. Anyone can consciously choose that path if they understand that they're not coming back. We already do it to ourselves in little ways throughout life, chipping pieces away and strengthening what remains.

The understanding, though, well, that's another story.

_____________________________

There is nothing worse than being right. Instead of being right, then, try to be open. It is more difficult, and more rewarding.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 25

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 1:53:12 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Wow, most interesting discussion, Bita.

I see submission as a giving up of the ego. To be a good submissive you HAVE to give up your ego to a certain extent, b/c good submission requires you to do things like place your dominant's wants and needs above your own, obey your dominant even when you think he/she is wrong, make pleasing your dominant a priority, learn to anticipate your dominant's needs and wants.

I used to think the same way in regard to the bit I italicized. Over time, somewhere between year 6 and year 8, things changed. His style of domination clicked and what I was to him hit me, bam, between the eyes and everything fell into place; for me to be a good submissive in our relationship meant that I did not do things like place his wants and needs above my own. In letting go of the lead, I really had to let go all the way and realize that it wasn't up to me to actually serve him at all. It became a simple matter of obeying. That was the job description. Everything else flows from there. I want to stress that obeying isn't always easy by any stretch and comes with its own cost. I don't know that there was any sort of specific things that he did other than what you said here (which I think rocks btw)

quote:

Patience and a steady hold on the reins of control take care of the ego issue naturally.

For me that really hits home. So, I guess in my case letting go of ego meant letting go of what "I" thought submission and service actually meant and finally "getting" what he truly expected which was service and submission which came from a place other than self. It really did become about his leadership rather than my own expectations of myself on how to be a good submissive to him. When he fell down in that area while we were in Portugal, it came close to ending us. We got through it, but there was .. something.. which did change.

On the part I bolded - That is a key topic point of course. Obeying a command that I 'think' is wrong is a different kettle of fish from obeying a command that I 'know' is wrong. There are other posts here that I want to address where I would like to delve further into that issue so will close for now and thank you for an enjoyable read, ChatteParfaitt.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)

Post #: 26

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 2:19:57 AM

BitaTruble

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Im glad you brought this subject up Bita.

It brings to mind what I see many Master/Dom(me) profiles advertise - Looking for a sub/slave to "break down - so they can build them back up" -
When I read that kind of thing, I do my famous "eye-roll".

There was a time in my life were I would have fallen for that if it came with power. I caved to power. My knees buckled under it. My brain often flies out the window in the face of it and my reason takes a vacation .. still happens, but not as much. I feel so powerful in my own right that it takes some bad-ass son of a bitch, powerful muther to get me to that point these days.. in addition to that.. he would have to be nice. ::laughs:: Not a combination you find all that often especially whenever I see the term 'firm but fair' in a profile and it irks me a bit. Firm but fair is cool for other people though.. just not at all for me. Breaking subs, firm but fair.. both phrases remind me of someone saying something they 'think' a submissive wants to hear and that's about as undomly as it gets for me.

quote:

I wonder, how and why someone would even think or WANT to find someone to do that to, is beyond me.

Well, if you think that's all you can get and something or someone is better than nothing and no one, desperate times call for desperate measures. I'm very grateful that it's no longer an issue with me and I can't help but feel a little motherly towards those for whom it is still an issue. Motherly in a 'I really want to kick your ass way.." .. not a 'oh, you poor baby' way.

quote:

I suppose that the sub/slave could and would want to keep the Master/Dom(me) in their world as to go so far as to do or say things that they normally wouldnt do so outside of that person - but I believe that is done out of fear that if they dont, that person is going to leave them.

I think love or fierce loyalty would fit that as well as fear. My best friend knows she won't be able to call me to ever bail her out of jail because odds are, I'm going to be sitting right next to her behind those bars. Fortunately, my best friend is about as likely to get arrested as a freakin' nun. She's practically fucking perfect in every way. lol

quote:

I, myself am much more prone to accepting authority if I have genuine admiration and respect for the other person.

I learned that, eventually, but it was also a tough lesson. I didn't have admiration or respect for those with the authority as a model to follow from growth years. Because there were a lot of gaps in my education and my eldest brother and I were left to pretty much run wild, power became the substitute and if that was in place, I'd bend to power for the sake of power even if there were cruel, even evil intentions behind it. Again, I've been lucky. Nothing ever manifested that involved the public or had actions taken against the public as part of the criteria for any relationship. Things could have turned out differently and I'm glad I got my shit together.

Thanks for the convo, JanahX! There are other points you've raised which I plan on addressing later, too.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to JanahX)

Post #: 27

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 2:24:38 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

You gotta have the foundation and structure that suits submission in the first place, and you have to ask yourself how far are you willing to go? How much do you trust that person you are with to do the right thing by you if the relationship ever ends knowing that your ability to rebuild yourself may be compromised by the relationship you have created with this person who now wants you gone?

Thank you for this, OttersSwim. I might have saved myself a whole lot of truble if I had asked myself these questions when I got into BDSM in the first place. One of the reasons that I do share some of my experiences is so that other folks really can learn from my many, many fuck-ups. Unfortunately, if they are like me, they aren't really going to learn it until they stick their own hand into the fire and see that it does, indeed, burn.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 28

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 2:30:26 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The problem with lessening their sense of self is the risk of lowering self esteem. He spent several years trying to strengthen my self esteem. I don't think he would consciously decide to reverse that now.

This is a good point, Celeste. I think it was ChatteParfaitt who said that the balance is both delicate and important. A relationship where reduction of some areas of ego come about naturally, in my mind, would be preferable over a relationship where such was forced. Good contribution. Thanks.

The 'other' Celeste!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 29

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 2:36:18 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I see a lot of (mostly male) doms talk about the molding/breaking/rebuilding stuff that Janah mentioned, and it does indeed give me an eyeroll. Then I thought of so many of Jeff's posts where he talks about "changing Carol's mind" (and that just makes my blood run cold...) and I am still unsure.

Hey you darlin' LadyH -

I blinked, literally, when I read your response as it's so alien to my thinking. They've been together for going on two decades. They appear to be well-satisfied, happy and still in love with one another. The dynamic is firm and solid (albeit there have been bumps along the way and there has been generous sharing on their relationship which I really enjoy) and I can practically see the googy eyes they make at each other over the web! Things seem to have evolved over time into the relationship they now enjoy. They also appear to be on a continous journey together.. what on Earth makes your blood run cold about that??

I'm very curious!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 30

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 2:41:17 AM

BitaTruble

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

For the most part Master is usually trying to help me build up my ego since I really don't have one. I never have and I've always found that to be a good thing.

However, there are times when my ego will get just a tad bit big, and not even really ego I guess, but my pride. During those times Master solves this pretty easily....he reminds me.

He reminds me that I am a slave, his slave. He reminds me of our faith and where ego and pride can lead you. That's all it really takes for me to start kicking myself and say to myself, "damn....thwarted again!". lol

Yeah.. I can relate. I do that pride thing on occasion myself and also get reminders. Those usually come in the form of sore nipples. (For some reason mine are super-ultra sensitive.. which, of course, has zero to do with the fact that I've had them stabbed with needles several thousand times over the last 30 years.)

Great.. I just admitted my achilles heel on a public forum.

I might have just screwed myself.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 31

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 2:46:06 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

There are still at least three more posts that I want to address but I got a later start than I had planned.. (um.. I was.. um.. delayed) and it's getting close to 3 AM and I'm beat.. (that's not a punny so shup from the peanut gallery!) I look forward to continuing the thread tomorrow after my chores and the baking is done!

Night all and thanks again for the abundance of meat and protein you have contributed! I'm loving it!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 32

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 7:01:55 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

Oh I know what you mean by the sensitive nipples. Ever since I had my breast reduction over 10 years ago they are MUCH more sensitive than ever before. I think Master takes advantage of that little tidbit of info.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 33

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 9:00:14 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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Wow, interesting thread. I probably addressed most of your points in my crazy-long posts in LadyPacts "Does this ever occur to you?" thread.

Summary - I spent a LOT of effort developing my ego and creating who I am today. I'm not letting that go, nor does he want me to. He thinks a confident sense of self is a healthy thing, and healthy for both of us in this relationship. He has no desire to strip that part (or any part) away from my mind. If he did, we would be mis-matched.

There's a difference, to me, in deferring to him when I think or know he is wrong, versus discounting my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs about it because he must be right since he's the owner. Then again, he knows he is a fallible human being and not omniscient, and takes my own intelligence into consideration. So he's not above admitting he is wrong about something. Sometimes he might say "Enough - we're doing it this way anyway" and then I'll drop it and go along with it. But it doesn't mean I suddenly believe it's right or that I've let go of my personal ego to go along with it. It just means I'm obeying him, without resentment.

There are times I do need to keep myself in check, and a little humility is a good thing. I do know I sometimes fall into the habit of just assuming I'm right and discounting what he thinks is right. This is when ego can become problematic. But it doesn't happen often and I typically recognize it as soon as it happens, and I pull myself back.

I do disagree with Chatte in this "b/c good submission requires you to do things like place your dominant's wants and needs above your own," and I know it was said in the context of some other things I do agree with, but I don't actually place his wants and needs above my own. We both place the relationship's wants and needs first and we fall second to that. There has been a time or two when his want/need was proving to be damaging to me and you bet I spoke up about it. It was in such conflict with my own needs, had he gone ahead with it, it would have ended the relationship. I had to speak up about it and dig my heels in, because, as mentioned in LP's thread, there are certain places I just can't/won't go. Right now. Maybe another time, but not now. I knew if he had forced the issue I would have walked away. My need to prevent emotional harm in myself was more important. If his needs were that important, he'd have to fulfill them with someone else.

So he shifted gears. In one case, he let up, realizing I was right. In the other case, we tabled the item and we are approaching it more slowly so it doesn't kill us.

But this, I think, is where healthy ego comes in. Yes, I do have a sense of self, and yes I do understand what will benefit that self and what will damage it. I'm not of a viewpoint I commonly see on these grounds, of "He knows me better than I know myself." He doesn't. He didn't do all the work I did to get me to this point. He does know me extremely well, and he continues to learn me. And he does lead me very well. But he expects I'll speak up if I see a problem.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 34

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 9:03:53 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

quote:

in deferring to him when I think or know he is wrong, versus discounting my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs about it because he must be right since he's the owner.

I kinda like when this happens and when it goes wrong I get to sit back with that little smirk on my face and biting my tongue and trying not to laugh and say "I told you so". hahaha.

Doing it his way has it's rewards in that way too.

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 35

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 9:10:11 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

in deferring to him when I think or know he is wrong, versus discounting my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs about it because he must be right since he's the owner.

I kinda like when this happens and when it goes wrong I get to sit back with that little smirk on my face and biting my tongue and trying not to laugh and say "I told you so". hahaha.

Doing it his way has it's rewards in that way too.

LOL you're a stinker.

Yeah that's got ego written all over it!

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 36

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 9:39:35 AM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I blinked, literally, when I read your response as it's so alien to my thinking. They've been together for going on two decades. They appear to be well-satisfied, happy and still in love with one another. The dynamic is firm and solid (albeit there have been bumps along the way and there has been generous sharing on their relationship which I really enjoy) and I can practically see the googy eyes they make at each other over the web! Things seem to have evolved over time into the relationship they now enjoy. They also appear to be on a continuous journey together.. what on Earth makes your blood run cold about that??

OK, this just made me laugh out loud (In a good way). I have to admit that more than once I've thought... "Come ON people. I'm the freakin disney dom on these boards. When did I, of all people, become creepy?"

But honestly, you and I both know what the rub is. It's internal enslavement for real... no safety nets, no going back. It's an awful lot of trust to place in another human and there's an awful lot of ways it could go wrong. I think "extremeness" in general is likely to flip out anyone not walking down a similar path. That's why we call it "extreme". The fact that my own little bit of extremeness isn't burning her clit with a cigar (thank you Kana for that LOL) but instead love & intimacy doesn't change it's ability to worry people. Heck, I myself wrote a bit of prose about what a dumbassed thing it'd be to do... about two months before I said "fuck it" and jumped off the cliff to see if we could fly or not.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 37

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 9:47:37 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
I blinked, literally, when I read your response as it's so alien to my thinking. They've been together for going on two decades. They appear to be well-satisfied, happy and still in love with one another. The dynamic is firm and solid (albeit there have been bumps along the way and there has been generous sharing on their relationship which I really enjoy) and I can practically see the googy eyes they make at each other over the web! Things seem to have evolved over time into the relationship they now enjoy. They also appear to be on a continuous journey together.. what on Earth makes your blood run cold about that??

OK, this just made me laugh out loud (In a good way). I have to admit that more than once I've thought... "Come ON people. I'm the freakin disney dom on these boards. When did I, of all people, become creepy?"

Oh I don't find you creepy. There are all sorts of cool people on these boards whose relationship style would not work for me at all, nor would mine work for them. You fit into that category for me, in this regard.

quote:

But honestly, you and I both know what the rub is. It's internal enslavement for real... no safety nets, no going back. It's an awful lot of trust to place in another human and there's an awful lot of ways it could go wrong. I think "extremeness" in general is likely to flip out anyone not walking down a similar path. That's why we call it "extreme". The fact that my own little bit of extremeness isn't burning her clit with a cigar (thank you Kana for that LOL) but instead love & intimacy doesn't change it's ability to worry people. Heck, I myself wrote a bit of prose about what a dumbassed thing it'd be to do... about two months before I said "fuck it" and jumped off the cliff to see if we could fly or not.

Internal enslavement for real....is that like "true M/s?"

Here's the rub for me, as explained in another thread. What you describe is, in my view (as in, how I would see it for myself - not as in judgment of what you're doing in your own relationship), beyond trust. It's giving my mind over to another, and that is a place I can't go, given my own history. To say "If the Mister says it, he's right because he says he's right" makes me think, why bother having any thoughts at all then? I may as well get a lobotomy. Now I know Carol is not a lobotomized woman walking around with no thoughts. But when you say these things, that's the image it gives me of myself, in that type of situation.

Maybe that's why LadyHib's blood goes cold.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 38

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 9:59:07 AM

littlewonder

Posts: 15659
Status: offline

heh...Master likes to joke about when he asks me what I'm thinking and I say "nuthin" and he says "Ok course not. Slaves don't have thoughts. They don't need to think".

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 39

RE: Leggo my ego*! - 7/20/2012 10:04:23 AM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

LOL Niiiiice....

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 40

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