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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:23:23 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Yep it would have sent him into spasims firing his weapon in ramdom directions.



And you know this how ?

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:24:25 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

It seems absurd this kind of shoot out can happen in the middle of a busy street when tazers are available.


A tazer isn't nearly as easy to hit with as a regular firearm. Also, the main function of tazers is to reduce the threshold for resorting to violence, and I wouldn't be surprised if it also lowers the threshold for resorting to lethal violence, as well. I'm not a proponent of tazers. Further, bear in mind that the police must switch between the weapons, as the tazer isn't actually mounted on their lethal weapons, meaning they must make a choice up front or risk a lengthy switch while under fire.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:24:42 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

They don't know he's done killing but I just think this is ironic just after one poster harped on "the only ones who should be allowed to carry are HIGHLY TRAINED police". Im sorry but these guys are 15 year vets and werent showing that they wre highly trained.

Hindsight is 20/20 but follow someone until bystanders arent at risk. You KNOW he is willing to shoot so surveilance until you can confront him without endangering citizens (yaknow those you are suppose dto protect and serve).

I keep hearing that noone should be able to carry because the police are "TRAINED PROFESSIONALS".

Im sorry but a lot of civilians would have done a better job. Im just glad none of the innocents were killed by those who were supposed to protect them.

The shooter spotted them and took time/place considerations out of the cops hands hard to be inconpicuous when in uniform.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:26:51 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

Rare for that to happen, most people instantly collapse in a heap


This is not true my friend...sometimes multiple shocks are needed and even then some are not completely incapacitated…you need to watch some of the American cops shows… you see the results of tazers all the time.

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:27:25 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Yep it would have sent him into spasims firing his weapon in ramdom directions.



And you know this how ?

I have recieved a severe electrical shock didn't knock me out but there was a lot of twitching.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:34:50 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Not a decision I want to make.


It's not generally a decision. Under stress, people drop to the level of their training. This is a well recognized fact. More to the point, it's a risk they choose to expose themselves to for the rest of us. This entails certain responsibilities. Something about "if you can't keep up, don't step up" might apply here. Part of the job is being willing to take a bullet rather than put other citizens at risk. That's why police are supposed to deserve some respect, conditional on actually having that willingness about them to serve their fellow man to a higher standard than could most of us.

Note that I don't know enough about this case to say whether or not these police officers did the right thing.

Nine bystander injuries do give me pause, though.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: Will the police pay for the healthcare of the bystanders?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:35:54 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

They don't know he's done killing but I just think this is ironic just after one poster harped on "the only ones who should be allowed to carry are HIGHLY TRAINED police". Im sorry but these guys are 15 year vets and werent showing that they wre highly trained.

Hindsight is 20/20 but follow someone until bystanders arent at risk. You KNOW he is willing to shoot so surveilance until you can confront him without endangering citizens (yaknow those you are suppose dto protect and serve).

I keep hearing that noone should be able to carry because the police are "TRAINED PROFESSIONALS".

Im sorry but a lot of civilians would have done a better job. Im just glad none of the innocents were killed by those who were supposed to protect them.

The shooter spotted them and took time/place considerations out of the cops hands hard to be inconpicuous when in uniform.

So, once again HIGHLY TRAINED goes out the window. I've been in Manhattan several times. I can guarantee I could maintain surveillance on some one while wearing a fucking clown suit. In a big city environment surveillance is easier than otherwise especially if there are 2 of you. The cops blew it. Their training was probably less than a typical CC permit. I'd about guarantee that a self reliant person carrying for self defense would have done better.

ETA, I'm afraid I'll have to spell it out because you don't read my posts and someone has incorrectly called me a "Leftist" even though I'm probably more fiscally conservative than he is and you drink his Koolaid and he hates when I prove it

NyC is a "No CarryZone" this gives criminals more confidence.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 8/26/2012 12:42:30 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:41:32 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Yep it would have sent him into spasims firing his weapon in ramdom directions.



And you know this how ?

I have recieved a severe electrical shock didn't knock me out but there was a lot of twitching.

Ive also been hit by 30 Amp 220V. Was hurting but still capable and thank goodness my heart wasnt in the direct line from source to ground.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:49:09 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		I got 20,000 and fortunately virtually no amps, at least that is what they told me, was like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:52:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

They don't know he's done killing but I just think this is ironic just after one poster harped on "the only ones who should be allowed to carry are HIGHLY TRAINED police". Im sorry but these guys are 15 year vets and werent showing that they wre highly trained.

Hindsight is 20/20 but follow someone until bystanders arent at risk. You KNOW he is willing to shoot so surveilance until you can confront him without endangering citizens (yaknow those you are suppose dto protect and serve).

I keep hearing that noone should be able to carry because the police are "TRAINED PROFESSIONALS".

Im sorry but a lot of civilians would have done a better job. Im just glad none of the innocents were killed by those who were supposed to protect them.

The shooter spotted them and took time/place considerations out of the cops hands hard to be inconpicuous when in uniform.

So, once again HIGHLY TRAINED goes out the window. I've been in Manhattan several times. I can guarantee I could maintain surveillance on some one while wearing a fucking clown suit. In a big city environment surveillance is easier than otherwise especially if there are 2 of you. The cops blew it. Their training was probably less than a typical CC permit. I'd about guarantee that a self reliant person carrying for self defense would have done better.

ETA, I'm afraid I'll have to spell it out because you don't read my posts and someone has incorrectly called me a "Leftist" even though I'm probably more fiscally conservative than he is and you drink his Koolaid and he hates when I prove it

NyC is a "No CarryZone" this gives criminals more confidence.

You could be right about that the confrontatintion took place at about 8 ft. At that range it is likely that some of the bystanders were struck by rounds that had passed through the shooter. Don't recalled saying you were a leftest. I agree with you about no carry zones.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/26/2012 12:53:52 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 12:52:58 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I just read where the maximum effective range of the most powerful taser is 35 feet. Does anyone know the distance when the firing began? Most taser are deployed closer than 15 feet and are meant to replace fists and night sticks not to be used in deadly force situations.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:06:33 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I am not knocking the NYPD here, as I realise they were in a difficult situation. I am wondering though what lessons can be learned, to avoid a repeat of nine civillians being hit by bullets, or fragments of bullets, fired by the police. It seems absurd this kind of shoot out can happen in the middle of a busy street when tazers are available.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492


Quite frankly, I'm surprised incidents such as this haven't happened more often. Maybe they have but just haven't made the news before because right now society is so hyper-sensitized about shooting incidents. Then there's the fact it happened right outside to Empire State building to consider so it was more news-worthy.

I've read most of the posts in this thread. I have a question for the OP. Have you ever had your life threatened with a weapon? Up close and personal? If you have, please share the experience so those of us who also have had that experience can contrast and compare.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:09:28 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I just read where the maximum effective range of the most powerful taser is 35 feet. Does anyone know the distance when the firing began? Most taser are deployed closer than 15 feet and are meant to replace fists and night sticks not to be used in deadly force situations.

Butch

Due to the wires, I'd put maximum effective range in a crowd at 5'-6 feet. Manhattan is fucking CROWDED. Surveillance is tough but easier than in an open area because of that especially if you have 2 or more people working together. they messed up and Im glad no innocent bystanders were killed. the problem is they will still be stuck with medical bills. Too bad there isnt any mandatory medical insirance or anything like that .

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:10:35 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I am not knocking the NYPD here, as I realise they were in a difficult situation. I am wondering though what lessons can be learned, to avoid a repeat of nine civillians being hit by bullets, or fragments of bullets, fired by the police. It seems absurd this kind of shoot out can happen in the middle of a busy street when tazers are available.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492


Quite frankly, I'm surprised incidents such as this haven't happened more often. Maybe they have but just haven't made the news before because right now society is so hyper-sensitized about shooting incidents. Then there's the fact it happened right outside to Empire State building to consider so it was more news-worthy.

I've read most of the posts in this thread. I have a question for the OP. Have you ever had your life threatened with a weapon? Up close and personal? If you have, please share the experience so those of us who also have had that experience can contrast and compare.

Would that apply to more than just the Op because I have.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:12:03 PM   
stormy66


Posts: 21
Joined: 5/11/2012
Status: offline 		posted to wrong post sorry

< Message edited by stormy66 -- 8/26/2012 1:16:46 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:15:16 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I am not knocking the NYPD here, as I realise they were in a difficult situation. I am wondering though what lessons can be learned, to avoid a repeat of nine civillians being hit by bullets, or fragments of bullets, fired by the police. It seems absurd this kind of shoot out can happen in the middle of a busy street when tazers are available.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19380492


Quite frankly, I'm surprised incidents such as this haven't happened more often. Maybe they have but just haven't made the news before because right now society is so hyper-sensitized about shooting incidents. Then there's the fact it happened right outside to Empire State building to consider so it was more news-worthy.

I've read most of the posts in this thread. I have a question for the OP. Have you ever had your life threatened with a weapon? Up close and personal? If you have, please share the experience so those of us who also have had that experience can contrast and compare.

Would that apply to more than just the Op because I have.


Sure thing. I asked the OP because it doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about (to put it politely).

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:21:28 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Twice. I qualified for nationals 4 times total in 2 combat sports.

The first time, I faced a knife in a bar. Had the assailant given me an open route to the door, he would have had to cut my ass or elbows because that's all he could have reached. As it was, I was in a corner, I took a cut to the thigh which is what I used to block his gut stroke and then he ended up with a lot of broken facial bones and stomped nuts because I just HAD to stomp and kick his head and stuff on my way out.

Second time was after hurricane Andrew. Water was still deep, winds were still about 40 knots and here came the looters. A rifle beats a handgun and they knew it and withdrew. Noone hurt.

ETA I wont get all butthurt if this gets removed for off topc because it is. I was just answering a question.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 8/26/2012 1:23:25 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:29:42 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		One thing seems clear,the presence of firearms,even those in the hands of veteran police officers who receive what one would have to assume a certain level of training,can still lead to innocents getting hit.
Now would someone please come along and make the idiotic claim that there should have been armed citizens in that movie theater in Colorado .....please.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:35:37 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

One thing seems clear,the presence of firearms,even those in the hands of veteran police officers who receive what one would have to assume a certain level of training,can still lead to innocents getting hit.
Now would someone please come along and make the idiotic claim that there should have been armed citizens in that movie theater in Colorado .....please.

Had they been there, they wouldn't have been law abiding citizens as the property owner had specified thru his signage that he didnt want firearms on his properrty. It's the right of a property owner. That's one problem I have with the NRA. they are trying to have gunowner's rights supercede properrty owners rights. I'm both. I think My property rights supercede someone elses (and my own as a gunowner) 2nd amendment rights.

ETA, unfortunately veteran police officers training consists of a coupla trips a year to the range to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn. It isnt what you have been led to believe it is.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 8/26/2012 1:38:08 PM >

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:38:33 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Sure thing. I asked the OP because it doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about (to put it politely).

It is easy to sit in your easy chair and claim that people who's lives were on the line didn't make thoughtfully well planned decisions.
Once the guy pulled his weapon there was only time to react.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 60
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