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RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:44:41 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

One thing seems clear,the presence of firearms,even those in the hands of veteran police officers who receive what one would have to assume a certain level of training,can still lead to innocents getting hit.
Now would someone please come along and make the idiotic claim that there should have been armed citizens in that movie theater in Colorado .....please.

Had they been there, they wouldn't have been law abiding citizens as the property owner had specified thru his signage that he didnt want firearms on his properrty. It's the right of a property owner. That's one problem I have with the NRA. they are trying to have gunowner's rights supercede properrty owners rights. I'm both. I think My property rights supercede someone elses (and my own as a gunowner) 2nd amendment rights.

ETA, unfortunately veteran police officers training consists of a coupla trips a year to the range to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn. It isnt what you have been led to believe it is.

I worked with or been around and shooting with cops most of my life. There are a few in every dept who are crack shots with anything they pick up. Most are no better shots than your average person. So my expereince in this matter conforms to your opinion. In many cases people are safer being protected by an armed citizen than by a "trained" officer, they shoot more often.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:45:13 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Sure thing. I asked the OP because it doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about (to put it politely).

It is easy to sit in your easy chair and claim that people who's lives were on the line didn't make thoughtfully well planned decisions.
Once the guy pulled his weapon there was only time to react.

My prob is this Bama (I'll freely admit Im monday morning quarterbacking here OK). Who made the decisions to make contact? Who fucked up the surveillance?
If a suspect is in sight and on foot, the police (esp if more than 1) have ALL the advantages. They have radios. The suspect initially doesnt know they are there.. they can call in backup so overwhelming force is available. They can usually bide their time and make the takedown at a time and place of their chosing.

Somehow, they let the suspect gain the upper hand at the worst possible time and place.

It appears that someone fucked up.
I hope this case appears in classes in the academy.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:48:25 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

One thing seems clear,the presence of firearms,even those in the hands of veteran police officers who receive what one would have to assume a certain level of training,can still lead to innocents getting hit.
Now would someone please come along and make the idiotic claim that there should have been armed citizens in that movie theater in Colorado .....please.

Had they been there, they wouldn't have been law abiding citizens as the property owner had specified thru his signage that he didnt want firearms on his properrty. It's the right of a property owner. That's one problem I have with the NRA. they are trying to have gunowner's rights supercede properrty owners rights. I'm both. I think My property rights supercede someone elses (and my own as a gunowner) 2nd amendment rights.

ETA, unfortunately veteran police officers training consists of a coupla trips a year to the range to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn. It isnt what you have been led to believe it is.

The point Hill is that no amount of range time leaves anyone able to claim to be highly trained when the bullets just might be coming back in your direction.
I don't care how many rounds some yahoo puts into a paper target....none of that qualifies you to deal with a real life and death confrontation.
I can recall seeing post after post on these forums about how there would have been less casualties had there been armed citizens at this movie theater or that mall...or this school.
Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:49:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Sure thing. I asked the OP because it doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about (to put it politely).

It is easy to sit in your easy chair and claim that people who's lives were on the line didn't make thoughtfully well planned decisions.
Once the guy pulled his weapon there was only time to react.

My prob is this Bama (I'll freely admit Im monday morning quarterbacking here OK). Who made the decisions to make contact? Who fucked up the surveillance?
If a suspect is in sight and on foot, the police (esp if more than 1) have ALL the advantages. They have radios. The suspect initially doesnt know they are there.. they can call in backup so overwhelming force is available. They can usually bide their time and make the takedown at a time and place of their chosing.

Somehow, they let the suspect gain the upper hand at the worst possible time and place.

It appears that someone fucked up.
I hope this case appears in classes in the academy.

Good points all.
I am only defending the cops from the moment the weapon was pulled, I do not know why they were in such close proximity. The may have been answereing the call and ran into him before they got a description. Then again they may have made a rookie mistake which could have gotten them killed. I don't know so Ihave tried to refrane from assesing that part of it.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/26/2012 1:52:11 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:52:12 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Sure thing. I asked the OP because it doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about (to put it politely).

It is easy to sit in your easy chair and claim that people who's lives were on the line didn't make thoughtfully well planned decisions.
Once the guy pulled his weapon there was only time to react.

My prob is this Bama (I'll freely admit Im monday morning quarterbacking here OK). Who made the decisions to make contact? Who fucked up the surveillance?
If a suspect is in sight and on foot, the police (esp if more than 1) have ALL the advantages. They have radios. The suspect initially doesnt know they are there.. they can call in backup so overwhelming force is available. They can usually bide their time and make the takedown at a time and place of their chosing.

Somehow, they let the suspect gain the upper hand at the worst possible time and place.

It appears that someone fucked up.
I hope this case appears in classes in the academy.

Good points all.
I am only defending the cops from the moment the weapon was pulled, I do not know why they were in such close proximity. The may have been answereing the call and ran into him before they got a description. Then again they may have made a rookie mistake which could have gotten them killed.

2 fifteen year vets. I expect more. Maybe I'm wrong but I do.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 1:52:51 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Me too
15 years they might have been investigators and out of pratice for this sort of thing( not a valid reason but a fact) or if they were still patrol officers likely not the sharpest knives in the drawer

< Message edited by BamaD -- 8/26/2012 1:57:22 PM >

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:00:14 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		NYPD, because they're a bunch of pieces of shit, don't get defended, or the benefit of the doubt anymore. They burned through that "good-will" about a century ago...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:18:34 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

I've read most of the posts in this thread. I have a question for the OP. Have you ever had your life threatened with a weapon? Up close and personal? If you have, please share the experience so those of us who also have had that experience can contrast and compare.



Yes I have been threatened with a weapon, a sawn off shot gun in a bar no less. No point sharing details with you though since neither of us have anyway of verifying the others claims. Most of the Right on here lay claim to having been cops, bounty hunters, navy seals and rambo, odd how that goes huh.

Still, at least you didnt use the usual bullshit I get on here which is always a version of "Whats it to you, you are not an American"

My question is valid if you look at this from Wiki, not a great source but still valid. Read the bolded part.


Tasers were introduced as non-lethal weapons to be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent, or potentially dangerous people, who would have otherwise been subjected to more lethal weapons such as a firearm.

(in reply to anthrosub)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:19:18 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

As usual, you totally miss my point.

1. the police aren't "highly trained". they go to the range a coupla times a year to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn.

2. It isnt necessary for a civilian to pull a weapon to prevent crime.
it is only necessary for a criminal to know that they are there. He will then conduct himself accordingly.

The District of Columbia has the strictest gun laws in the nation.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

Their violent crime rate is Triple the US as a whole.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:20:46 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

I've read most of the posts in this thread. I have a question for the OP. Have you ever had your life threatened with a weapon? Up close and personal? If you have, please share the experience so those of us who also have had that experience can contrast and compare.



Yes I have been threatened with a weapon, a sawn off shot gun in a bar no less. No point sharing details with you though since neither of us have anyway of verifying the others claims. Most of the Right on here lay claim to having been cops, bounty hunters, navy seals and rambo, odd how that goes huh.

Still, at least you didnt use the usual bullshit I get on here which is always a version of "Whats it to you, you are not an American"

My question is valid if you look at this from Wiki, not a great source but still valid. Read the bolded part.


Tasers were introduced as non-lethal weapons to be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent, or potentially dangerous people, who would have otherwise been subjected to more lethal weapons such as a firearm.

BBBBBut I'm not on the right. They kicked me out and called me a leftist.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:23:17 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

BBBBBut I'm not on the right. They kicked me out and called me a leftist.



I get that too. maybe we should start a sensible club.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:30:43 PM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Second time was after hurricane Andrew. Water was still deep, winds were still about 40 knots and here came the looters. A rifle beats a handgun and they knew it and withdrew. Noone hurt.


I went to a gun shop (in Louisiana) where I had a 9mm on consignment. Evidently there had been some shenanigans there. The door was open so I walked in. The place was cleaned out. I called out and a guy came out from the back and leveled his .45 on me. Told me to back on out of the store. I complied.

I told him I had a firearm on consignment there. He explained outside what had happened. I calmly reminded him that it was a place of business, during business hours and the door was unlocked. I also told him in no uncertain terms his leveling his firearm on me was totally inappropriate.




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:41:35 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

As usual, you totally miss my point.

1. the police aren't "highly trained". they go to the range a coupla times a year to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn.

2. It isnt necessary for a civilian to pull a weapon to prevent crime.
it is only necessary for a criminal to know that they are there. He will then conduct himself accordingly.

The District of Columbia has the strictest gun laws in the nation.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

Their violent crime rate is Triple the US as a whole.

I didn't miss shit...I'm just not buying it.While I agree with you that "highly trained" is a misnomer,I highly disagree with your assertion that the specter of armed civilians will somehow impact criminal behavior.
That is ,at best a specious argument...at worst just so much bullshit.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:47:01 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
I don't care how many rounds some yahoo puts into a paper target....none of that qualifies you to deal with a real life and death confrontation.


Given that most cops put in less range time than the average civilian (whom actually puts in too little also), what makes them qualified?

One cannot discount training. And many civilians are better trained than cops.

Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

Imagine a civilian doing a one shot take down.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:51:24 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I didn't miss shit...I'm just not buying it.While I agree with you that "highly trained" is a misnomer,I highly disagree with your assertion that the specter of armed civilians will somehow impact criminal behavior.
That is ,at best a specious argument...at worst just so much bullshit.



How many gun shops have you heard of getting ~robbed?
How many open carry people have you heard of getting ~robbed / mugged, etc?







_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 2:58:09 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

How many gun shops have you heard of getting ~robbed?
How many open carry people have you heard of getting ~robbed / mugged, etc?


MANY !!!!!! Have you heard of "Google"? Page after page of it. Guns are valuable--so people steal them.

When my neighbor was robbed, the ONLY thing they took was his guns.

Then there's this guy, robbed with his own handgun...
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/05/30/man-accused-of-stealing-gun-from-conceal-and-carry-holder/

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:02:50 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


Imagine a couple of armed citizens adding their bullets to the P.O.'s on 5th avenue !

As usual, you totally miss my point.

1. the police aren't "highly trained". they go to the range a coupla times a year to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn.

2. It isnt necessary for a civilian to pull a weapon to prevent crime.
it is only necessary for a criminal to know that they are there. He will then conduct himself accordingly.

The District of Columbia has the strictest gun laws in the nation.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

Their violent crime rate is Triple the US as a whole.

I didn't miss shit...I'm just not buying it.While I agree with you that "highly trained" is a misnomer,I highly disagree with your assertion that the specter of armed civilians will somehow impact criminal behavior.
That is ,at best a specious argument...at worst just so much bullshit.


Then what do you think is the reason for the high crime rate in D C? Is it because they are 90% black? Doesn't that make you a bit biased?

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:03:25 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
How many gun shops have you heard of getting ~robbed?
How many open carry people have you heard of getting ~robbed / mugged, etc?


I KNEW Darwin had had something about this, but it was quite a few years ago (19 of 'em). They claim they've confirmed it. I am not attesting to the veracity but your post sparked my memory of having seen this.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:04:19 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

How many gun shops have you heard of getting ~robbed?
How many open carry people have you heard of getting ~robbed / mugged, etc?


MANY !!!!!! Have you heard of "Google"? Page after page of it. Guns are valuable--so people steal them.

When my neighbor was robbed, the ONLY thing they took was his guns.

Then there's this guy, robbed with his own handgun...
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/05/30/man-accused-of-stealing-gun-from-conceal-and-carry-holder/

LOL.....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: New York Shootings - 8/26/2012 3:04:35 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

ETA, unfortunately veteran police officers training consists of a coupla trips a year to the range to make sure they can still hit the side of a barn. It isnt what you have been led to believe it is.


I would be somewhat curious to know what the actual figures for training are, in terms of hours and rounds down the range.

Here, our police force is generally not armed. In the capital, there is at most one request from a patrol per day for permission to arm themselves in response to some situation, which is considered dramatic and reflective of a situation bordering on lawlessness in the capital. Of course, there's only about 1.5 million people in that police district, so not comparable to a large city. Said police district has recently increased to some 60 hours minimum at the range for regular police, and 120 hours (I think) for the ones that are preferred in the event of a "shots fired" scenario, while the SWAT teams do an average of 900 hours of training (practical ops, not range time). Anyone that's serious about it will obviously train more than the minimum.

I'm assuming the figures are significantly higher for the USA, at least?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 80
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