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RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/18/2006 12:07:36 AM

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There are many people who don't have a personal code, and they're not just amoral louts. Not all moral systems are based on universal rules; before modern times, in fact, few were. That's why the Greeks loved their tragedies: they presented genuine moral dilemmas to people who did not believe that a single code could solve everyone's problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

There is no such thing as a "moral" dilema...when faced with any course of action, a person with a personal moral code can determine very easily what the right thing to do is.

(in reply to Arpig)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/18/2006 1:05:17 AM

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Moral dillema's have a way of sneaking into our every day lives, the little things here and there, they don't really test that ethical sense of 'right and wrong' we are (or should have been) tought. It's the bigger issues that stay with us that sometimes can even challenge or change a set beleif structure.

One of the biggest moral dillemma's I have ever faced was when I was 19 years old and my Dad was dying of throat cancer, it was an ugly slow lingering death that not only robbed him of his voice but of a chance for me to ever get to know him. To keep a long story short, there was a time near then end when he and I had a rare moment alone in the hospital room ( my 4 brothers were literlly camped out in the room so he would never feel alone)
and he looked at me in one of his moments of clarity and asked to please kill him, it was awful hearing him beg for a release, he could speak in a rasping whisper but then wrote me notes when that too failed him.

. I couldn't do it, as much as I wanted to help ease his suffering I just couldn't bring myself to do it. He lingered for another week before his heart finally stopped but not before the tumor reached his jugular vein and he bled out.

Unfortunatly that scene replayed in January this year with my Mom, we had no idea just how sick she was until the hospital called and said she was dying. My Mom had kept the knowledge she had cancer to herself, in her own true stoic style she knew what was coming and didn't want us to worry. She lived about 350 km ( 175 or so miles) away and by the time we got to the hospital she was comitose and the morbid death watch had begun, all of us watching for the next breath. A once elegant lady of 5'9 and feiry Scotch/Irish decent she was now a skeletal 90 pounds and shrunk to 5'2. I spoke privatly with the Doctor and asked if she was in pain, she wasn't but if needed there was an order for morphine but it would supress her respirations which were already shallow. He left the decision up to me.
I spoke with my step father and he wanted it to be my call, he loved her dearly but felt this was my mother first and for most ad the sight of her dying was hard enough.
It wasn't so hard a choice this time around.
I talked to the Doctor, he had also known my Mom when she wasn't ill and told him , yes I think she is in pain.
She passed peacefully five minutes later, there was no gasping or sighing, just a simple slow last breath that set her free.

Normally I would not share so much personal greif but the other stories here of simular experiences inspired me. Thank you for sharing as well

denika

(in reply to MistressOfGa)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/18/2006 1:35:01 AM

JAROD

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I have alway believed in this:

Never commit murder or warfare
Never tell a falsehood
Never reveal an injurious truth

For me I had a very tough decision back in 93. I had to decide if I should use my army money for college. I was in Desert Storm.

(in reply to denika)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/18/2006 6:33:20 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness

Skittykitty,

thank you for your story. A very difficult situation for everybody, but especially for a
child, that is between his parents.

I didn't end up having to say anything, thank goodness, I had made up my mind that I would, when my father let the cat out of the bag himself one evening when he was drunk. I still don't know if it would have been the right thing to do or not.

_____________________________

...

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RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/18/2006 6:37:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: denika

I talked to the Doctor, he had also known my Mom when she wasn't ill and told him , yes I think she is in pain.
She passed peacefully five minutes later, there was no gasping or sighing, just a simple slow last breath that set her free.

Normally I would not share so much personal greif but the other stories here of simular experiences inspired me. Thank you for sharing as well

denika

Goodness, you have me crying, we went through exactly the same thing with my much loved and much missed Grandmother.. I couldn't in all concious see her suffer for one more minute than was absolutely necessary.

even though it was the most painful thing I have ever done.

hugs to you

(in reply to denika)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/18/2006 6:44:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: skittykitty

Goodness, you have me crying, we went through exactly the same thing with my much loved and much missed Grandmother.. I couldn't in all concious see her suffer for one more minute than was absolutely necessary.

even though it was the most painful thing I have ever done.

hugs to you

Thank you *s* they are never very far from our thoughts are they..

denika

(in reply to skittykitty)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/18/2006 6:53:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: denika

quote:

ORIGINAL: skittykitty

Goodness, you have me crying, we went through exactly the same thing with my much loved and much missed Grandmother.. I couldn't in all concious see her suffer for one more minute than was absolutely necessary.

even though it was the most painful thing I have ever done.

hugs to you

Thank you *s* they are never very far from our thoughts are they..

denika

No, never far away at all..

(in reply to denika)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 9:51:23 PM

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Dustyn,

i am sorry, that i am writing so late. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
The senctence you cited from your great grandmother is very wise.

ZD

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aka Morgaine289

http://goldenerkern.blogspot.com/

(in reply to Dustyn)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 9:53:07 PM

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Arpig,

thank you for letting us know, that you are so sure in your ways. May you never experience a situation that will really test your attitude.

ZD

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(in reply to Arpig)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 9:56:42 PM

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Mistress of Ga,

thank you for sharing that part of your lifestory. What a incredible difficult situation.
The only comfort i can maybe offer you is, that the love to your brother and mother transmitts so clear through your words, that they surely have felt your love till the end.

Two funerals in one month is hard to bear.

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(in reply to MistressOfGa)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 10:02:58 PM

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On the whole I would rather be in Philedelphia......

Lam is the only asshole that spelled dilemma correctly, so all other opinions are null and void.

The only thing that has been established is that it is a delema.

But what the fuck? any thing for a laught

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to ZenDragoness)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 10:06:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

There are many people who don't have a personal code, and they're not just amoral louts. Not all moral systems are based on universal rules; before modern times, in fact, few were. That's why the Greeks loved their tragedies: they presented genuine moral dilemmas to people who did not believe that a single code could solve everyone's problems.

Lordandmaster,

thank you for eloquently making that point.

ZD

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RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 10:08:54 PM

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Denika,

i was very moved by your words, thank you for writing about so difficult times in your life and showing us, that if we use our life expericiences to learn, we can grow.

ZD

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(in reply to denika)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 10:14:12 PM

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Jarod,

thank you for your telling about a difficult situation. You did not write much, but by far enough to give me food for thought.

ZD

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RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 10:16:07 PM

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Ron,

i am happy to see you in my thread.

Do you know, that i would be honoured if you present me with a dilemma in your life?

No, Ron, no , not the coffe or tea dilemma you had three days ago!

ZD/Ruth

edit: a question sits much better with a ?

< Message edited by ZenDragoness -- 6/23/2006 10:17:12 PM >

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RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/23/2006 10:59:29 PM

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Ja, Ich kann dich. Ich wollen gibst zum sich eine dilemma, kuirtzlich. Guten Abend. Schlafen gut. Das tut mier lied, meine deutch is alt und sprechen suzamme ungeheuer.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/24/2006 12:55:05 AM

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Yikes, call the police! Because the German language is being murdered!

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RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/24/2006 1:09:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

There is no such thing as a "moral" dilema...when faced with any course of action, a person with a personal moral code can determine very easily what the right thing to do is.

I have such a moral code, and rarely find myself wondering what to do in any given situation, and when I do have to wonder, it is a case of weighing the degrees of harm that will accrue to the other person...and in that case always go with the lesser degree of harm.

Personal moral codes could be just a personal justification for ones own actions and in effect no more than a rationalisation. There are no universal morals so what is moral to one person is not necessarily moral to another. In the end, believing ones morals are better than another's (one assumes one believes ones morals are better than the different moral codes of another or why have them?) one is in danger of becoming self righteous. Which in itself is a moral dilema.

(in reply to Arpig)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/24/2006 2:50:30 AM

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I've had a few.
One major one was whether or not I could mentally justify to myself having an affair in a relationship where, after 12 years of marriage, I simply was not getting my emotional or physical needs met at all, and had not been for 7 years, and the other person in the relationship objected to me not wanting to remain monogamous (also, not being monogamous was also clearly out of bounds as far as my religion was concerned) - but - the other person clearly wasn't ever going to meet those needs (they said they weren't and I believed them as they'd already proved they meant it).

I had an affair anyway - and deliberately did not let them know (not that they would have energetically objected too much, would be my guess. I just didn't want to fight about it, or have to explain it if they did). Then, about a year into it, felt incredibly guilty - so I stopped having it. In hindsight, I've got no problem with having done that - at all (again). Doesn't matter now anyway - my own situation has completely changed since then.

I think "justifying" that kind of thing is pretty situational and also depend's on someone's personal sense of "ethics".

Many folks (although I agree there are amoral folks out there) - from your supposedly sane, "upstanding, back-bone of society" types to petty thugs on the streets are operating within their "code of honor" or has their "personal code", don't they?

Much of the time all of it seems pretty - fluid - to me.

I have to love when people want to apply cookie-cutter answers to scenarios that are both individually developed and dealt with. Some people (possibly much of the human race) apparently doesn't deal very well with ambiguity and prefers to live in a black-and-white world, as far as supposed "morals" are concerned - instead. It's easier, probably, since in many cases it takes a lot less thought and in some cases, less personal accountability. My religion, for istance, says I should: Object to homosexuals having a sex life and never ever take a birth-control pill. I'm not going to follow those "guidelines", though. They are against my "'personal code."

I know we've got societal laws and courts, etc - for some very good reasons, and I do think some things (murder, for instance) are inherently wrong - But -

(My take) if even "the law" was "cut and dried" as far as interpretation, then why would there even be a need for lawyers? Who'd need them? People wouldn't get trials - they'd just go straight to prison much of the time instead.

Having said that, I've always been pretty fond of the ethical "test question":
**What would the world be like to live in if everyone (not just you)did____________(whatever it is you're considering).

Better or worse? If everyone: Ran red lights, beat their children, donated to charity - whatever.

Even after you've answered that for yourself there will be people who'll disagree and debate what you may be considering - it really ends up being (I think) whatever you can you live with yourself (long-term) doing. I've had more than one "impulsive moment" I have not regretted in the long-term but still think - it never hurts to think it over for awhile if you're not sure. Can be easier said than done sometimes. Good luck.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 6/24/2006 3:52:12 AM >

_____________________________

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That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Dilemmas, moral and other - 6/24/2006 7:20:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Yikes, call the police! Because the German language is being murdered!

No, i will not call the police, because Ron is slaughtering the german language in such
a cute way.

ZD

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aka Morgaine289

http://goldenerkern.blogspot.com/

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

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