RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (Full Version)

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Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/22/2012 5:44:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

DNA reports released Wednesday showed there was no DNA from Trayvon on the gun.


Actually, Trayvon's DNA was only excluded from the GRIP of the gun. The rest, including holster, was inconclusive.

Meanwhile, forensics experts have come out and said that the DNA results don't mean much, Trayvon would have had to have handled the gun for a length of time before his DNA being on it would be an expectation. Since George's claim is that the gun was in his holster until right before the shooting, the DNA results are consistent.



farglebargle -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/22/2012 1:51:23 PM)

quote:


And I do not care about Zimmerman's credibility.


You might not care about Zimmerman's credibility but the entire Affirmative Defense he's claiming is predicated upon it.



Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/22/2012 2:06:16 PM)

Nor do I care what happens to Zimmerman: that is for the judge to decide upon. Either he is set free, or he is sent to jail.



Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/22/2012 8:02:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:


And I do not care about Zimmerman's credibility.


You might not care about Zimmerman's credibility but the entire Affirmative Defense he's claiming is predicated upon it.


And more importantly, on the State's ability to disprove that Defense beyond all reasonable doubt. There's plenty of other evidence in support of self defense beyond what George says; and if the State cannot disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that George was on the ground, unable to get away, taking injury and yelling for help until he believed he needed to use force to prevent serious bodily injury, then George has to be acquitted, no matter what else the State thinks it can prove.



farglebargle -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 12:55:10 AM)

I think that since the only person who says that Zimmerman was unable to get away, and that the TRIVIAL injuries rise to the level required a reasonable person to use deadly force IS ZIMMERMAN, that those aren't going to be any issue.

Again, the real issue here is that there are people who discount the history of young black men being abducted and lynched by white men as being relevant to Trayvon Martin's fear for his life, and ultimately futile actions in defense of it.

But hey, Victim Blaming ain't exactly a new thing, is it?



Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 2:07:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I think that since the only person who says that Zimmerman was unable to get away, and that the TRIVIAL injuries rise to the level required a reasonable person to use deadly force IS ZIMMERMAN, that those aren't going to be any issue.

Again, the real issue here is that there are people who discount the history of young black men being abducted and lynched by white men as being relevant to Trayvon Martin's fear for his life, and ultimately futile actions in defense of it.

But hey, Victim Blaming ain't exactly a new thing, is it?


1) How bad the existing injuries are is absolutely irrelevant, as the test for self defense is not a reasonable fear of existing injuries, but a belief force is needed to prevent serious bodily harm. George's broken nose, 2 lacerations, marks all over his head, cheeks, forehead, and face, swelling so bad that Detective Singleton actually asked if that was the normal shape of his head, then pointed out the next day how much the swelling had gone down, the 2 black eyes...those just help support George's claim that he was getting his ass kicked, nothing more.

2) No, it's not just Zimmerman's word. There was a witness that saw Trayvon on top of George moments before the shooting, with George trying to get up and unable to. That's far more than enough required to show reasonable doubt that George needed to shoot in self defense.

3) There's still no proof George was doing anything wrong. All the evidence points to George just wanting to help Police; there's no evidence to indicate that George ever intended to meet, confront, run into, detain, etc Trayvon. George was not the aggressor.

4) Race is entirely not the issue here. The ONLY issue is: Was there a reasonable belief deadly force was needed to prevent serious bodily harm. There's next to zero chance to disprove that, so George will in all likelihood be acquitted.



Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 4:00:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
the TRIVIAL injuries

Getting a broken nose is no trivial injury: it requires a strong blow to the head, which also may cause a concussion (in turn causing people to be unable to think clearly), and which broken nose is - I imagine - quite painful, thus also distracting the hurt person from thinking clearly.

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Zimmerman believed that he would be seriously harmed by the thug who attacked him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
Again, the real issue here is that there are people who discount the history of young black men being abducted and lynched by white men as being relevant to Trayvon Martin's fear for his life, and ultimately futile actions in defense of it.

If the Trayvon thug had been in fear of his life, he would have run home and/or called for help and/or phoned the police. He did none of these things. Instead he turned back and attacked a concerned citizen who endeavoured to protect other citizens.

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
there are people who discount the history of young black men being abducted and lynched by white men [snip]

But hey, Victim Blaming ain't exactly a new thing, is it?

Quite. I would indeed blame the young black men in most of these cases.



farglebargle -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 8:51:54 AM)

I guess if you're someone who isn't used to actual physical activity, you might perceive a broken nose as significant. I would suggest these people shut off the computer, and go get some exercise.



Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 8:55:17 AM)

I perceive a broken nail as significant.



vincentML -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 9:48:36 AM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
there are people who discount the history of young black men being abducted and lynched by white men [snip]

But hey, Victim Blaming ain't exactly a new thing, is it?

Quite. I would indeed blame the young black men in most of these cases.


Rule; Really a cruel and offensive comment to those who know the history of racial lynching here in America. I hope you will reflect on what you said and perhaps walk it back.



Nosathro -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 10:33:54 AM)

Well here we go again...I wonder how long this will last before they close this on down like the others?



Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 11:22:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Rule; Really a cruel and offensive comment to those who know the history of racial lynching here in America. I hope you will reflect on what you said and perhaps walk it back.

I have scarcely any knowledge about that part of USA history, except some cases that have been made into a movie.

I am sure that many injustices occurred - but isn't the same true of some who have been legally put into prison, on death row, or even executed in prison?

Nor do I know much about anthropology. (And these lynchings pertain to that science.) But I do know that societies usually according to their own rules - whether legal or not - believe themselves to be justified when they kill someone who transgressed those rules.



vincentML -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 11:43:24 AM)

quote:

I have scarcely any knowledge about that part of USA history, except some cases that have been made into a movie.

I thought that might be the case since you are not a resident on these shores. Please believe me when I say the lynching of blacks by white mobs post Civil War was an awful chapter in our history. I take it you are not sympathetic to such Evil. [:)]

After the establishment of the Ku Klux Klan in 1867 the number of lynching of African American increased dramatically. The main objective of the KKK was to maintain white supremacy in the South, which they felt was under threat after their defeat in the Civil War. It has been estimated that between 1880 and 1920, an average of two African Americans a week were lynched in the United States.

In 1884 Ida Wells, editor of Free Speech, a small newspaper in Memphis, carried out an investigation into lynching. She discovered during a short period 728 black men and women had been lynched by white mobs. Of these deaths, two-thirds were for small offences such as public drunkenness and shoplifting.

[SNIP]

Dr. Arthur Raper was commissioned in 1930 to produce a report on lynching. He discovered that "3,724 people were lynched in the United States from 1889 through to 1930. Over four-fifths of these were Negroes, less than one-sixth of whom were accused of rape. Practically all of the lynchers were native whites. The fact that a number of the victims were tortured, mutilated, dragged, or burned suggests the presence of sadistic tendencies among the lynchers. Of the tens of thousands of lynchers and onlookers, only 49 were indicted and only 4 have been sentenced."




There is much more to be learned in this article.



Rule -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 12:19:27 PM)

I think that we are deviating rather strongly from the Opening Post. Perhaps you had better repost your last post in a dedicated thread.



vincentML -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 2:03:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I think that we are deviating rather strongly from the Opening Post. Perhaps you had better repost your last post in a dedicated thread.


*shrugs* just trying to be helpful, is all [:)]



Nosathro -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 3:40:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
the TRIVIAL injuries

Getting a broken nose is no trivial injury: it requires a strong blow to the head, which also may cause a concussion (in turn causing people to be unable to think clearly), and which broken nose is - I imagine - quite painful, thus also distracting the hurt person from thinking clearly.

There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Zimmerman believed that he would be seriously harmed by the thug who attacked him.

The medical reports do report a broken nose however they also note that it was not that serious, also that Zimmerman was orientated x4 meaning his was normal. Further the following day the doctor noted in his report that the injuries Zimmerman has were already starting to heal.



Raiikun -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 6:10:21 PM)

Under Florida law you're permitted to use force to prevent serious bodily injury. There's no requirement to wait until you've been seriously injured first.



Nosathro -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/23/2012 8:29:23 PM)

And yet Zimmerman keeps claiming how badly injuried he was....right[&:]



farglebargle -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/24/2012 6:56:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Under Florida law you're permitted to use force to prevent serious bodily injury. There's no requirement to wait until you've been seriously injured first.


Yeah, but the belief that you're about to experience great bodily harm must be REASONABLE. And given George Zimmerman's history of drug use and poor judgement, I don't think he's going to prevail on that.



vincentML -> RE: Update on Trayvon Martin case (9/24/2012 7:07:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Under Florida law you're permitted to use force to prevent serious bodily injury. There's no requirement to wait until you've been seriously injured first.


Yeah, but the belief that you're about to experience great bodily harm must be REASONABLE. And given George Zimmerman's history of drug use and poor judgement, I don't think he's going to prevail on that.


Soooo . . . lying on the ground being punched by someone straddling your midsection is NOT condusive to reasonable fear?



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