RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (Full Version)

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darkinshadows -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 5:50:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Wow...a guy posts a very simple question about sensitivity and gets a 5 page lecture on the moralilty and ethics of circumcision.......interesting.

erin -
 
It is really important to understand that circumcision is not a morality one.  It is ethical.  It is a heated subject, but morals are far from the point.
 
Peace and Rapture



meatcleaver -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:00:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

Not desperate meataxe ...   just reminding you of your own words.  Until you put up - just shut up!


You are very sensitive about this issue and there was me thinking I am the one with the foreskin and should be sensitive.

Tell me what languages you speak and I will provide you with references on the internet.

I speak some French, German and Dutch but I'm not going to suffer reading legal and medical websites for no reason at all because you can't understand them.



Brosco -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:03:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

(You cannot find the statement I produced or you cannot find the document?
Well, as I said... that statement comes from the BMA documantation.  It is there.



Twice I have produced direct statements of meataxe lies...  sorry...  i cant be bothered chasing the dreams of others...  I have produced direct statements from the same organisation that contradict you...  so sorry.. if you have them, produce them.. or just forget quoting.



meatcleaver -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:06:32 AM)

You will notice on this page it states
http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/  The rules of the General Medical Council of the United Kingdom require that non-therapeutic or controversial surgery be done only with the consent of a court.

And

Further, it is not clear how medically unnecessary non-therapeutic circumcision can be in the best interest of any particular child. A court ruling in the United Kingdom held that a circumcision was not in the best interest of a particular child.



Brosco -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:08:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

Not desperate meataxe ...   just reminding you of your own words.  Until you put up - just shut up!


You are very sensitive about this issue and there was me thinking I am the one with the foreskin and should be sensitive.

Tell me what languages you speak and I will provide you with references on the internet.

I speak some French, German and Dutch but I'm not going to suffer reading legal and medical websites for no reason at all because you can't understand them.


I speak English, some Thai, Malay and a smidgin of chinese - but your apology in in english for unsubstanciated wild claims will be sufficient.



Rule -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:10:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Tell me what languages you speak and I will provide you with references on the internet.

Why bother? It is a waste of time. He is not a rational person, and therefore cannot distinguish between facts and opinions. Any fact that you present him with in his mind merely is an opinion and because it is not his opinion it in his mind by definition is wrong. He is just obstructing rational discussion, pulling your legs. As soon as I know how to block him on this side he will be blocked.



mistoferin -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:11:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

erin -
 
It is really important to understand that circumcision is not a morality one.  It is ethical.  It is a heated subject, but morals are far from the point.
 
It's also important to understand that the OP asked a simple question.....and I am quite sure wasn't looking for what he got for answers.
 
Actually, I don't think I really was far from the point..............
 

Main Entry: 2mor·al

Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'mo r-&l, 'mär-; 3 is m&-'ral
1 a : the moral significance or practical lesson (as of a story) b : a passage pointing out usually in conclusion the lesson to be drawn from a story
2 plural a : moral practices or teachings : modes of conduct b : ETHICS

Main Entry: 1mor·al

Function: adjective
Pronunciation: 'mo r-&l, 'mär-
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin moralis, from mor-, mos custom
1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior  c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
2 : probable though not proved : VIRTUAL <a moral certainty>
3 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a moral victory> <moral support>
- mor·al·ly
/-&-le/ adverb
synonyms MORAL , ETHICAL , VIRTUOUS , RIGHTEOUS , NOBLE mean conforming to a standard of what is right and good. MORAL implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong <the basic moral values of a community>. ETHICAL may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity <committed to the highest ethical principles>. VIRTUOUS implies the possession or manifestation of moral excellence in character <not a religious person, but virtuous nevertheless>. RIGHTEOUS stresses guiltlessness or blamelessness and often suggests the sanctimonious <wished to be righteous before God and the world>. NOBLE implies moral eminence and freedom from anything petty, mean, or dubious in conduct and character <had the noblest of reasons for seeking office>.

Main Entry: eth·i·cal

Function: adjective
Pronunciation: 'e-thi-k&l
Variants: also eth·ic
/-thik/
Etymology: Middle English etik, from Latin ethicus, from Greek ethikos, from ethos character -
1 : of or relating to ethics
2 : involving or expressing  moral approval or disapproval



meatcleaver -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:13:36 AM)

An apology?
 
European Union. The European Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine (1997) is an instrument of international law. Nineteen Fifteen European nations now have ratified this treaty. It has been in effect since 1 December 1999. The circumcision of male children appears to violate Articles 1, 2, and 20 of this convention. The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union (2000) recognizes rights to freedom from cruel and degrading treatment, to right to respect for his or her physical and mental integrity, and the right to the security of the person. Children shall have the right to such protection and care as is necessary for their well-being.

Proposed standards. Hodges and associates45 propose the following requirements for ethical prophylactic medical interventions on children:


  1. Clinically verifiable disease, deformity, or injury are present or are highly likely to be present in the future.
  2. The proposed intervention must be the least invasive and most conservative treatment option.
  3. Despite any harm that may be foreseen, there must be a reasonable expectation that the procedure will result in a net benefit to the patient while having at most a minimal negative impact on the patient's health.
  4. The patient is competent to consent to the procedure and provides fully informed consent. Where a patient cannot provide informed consent, the procedure must be required by medical urgency, thereby excusing a lack of consent. Since reasonable and competent adults would normally refuse to give consent to medically unnecessary interventions (especially those that alter normal appearance and/or function), it must be assumed that children would also refuse if they had the capacity to understand their situation, formulate their wishes, and express them.
  5. The intervention is part of standard practice, and its imposition is sanctioned by society for valid, urgent, and potentially calamitous health reasons that justify failure to obtain individual consent.
  6. There is also a reasonable expectation that without the intervention the individual will be at high risk of developing the disease. A high risk for an untreated individual is not defined as a higher risk than a treated individual but an absolute vulnerability to disease-that is, an individual's chance of ever being diagnosed with the disease is close to 1 in 1. To put this in perspective, an American woman's chance of being diagnosed with breast cancer is 1 in 8 (12.6%), yet this figure is not said to justify prophylactic intervention-that is, routine neonatal mastectomy.

Non-therapeutic circumcision of male or female children would not satisfy these criteria.45
Proportionality. One bioethics authority defines proportionality as follows:

The well-being of the whole person must be taken into account in deciding about any therapeutic intervention or use of technology. Therapeutic procedures that are likely to cause harm or undesirable side-effects can be justified only by a proportionate benefit to the patient.51

Circumcision of male infants fails the test of proportionality because the non-existent therapeutic benefit is overbalanced by the certainty of permanent injury to the penis, to loss of protective, immunological, mechanical, sensory, erogenous, and sexual functions, as well as the risk to health and life inherent in every circumcision.



darkinshadows -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:16:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

(You cannot find the statement I produced or you cannot find the document?
Well, as I said... that statement comes from the BMA documantation.  It is there.



Twice I have produced direct statements of meataxe lies...  sorry...  i cant be bothered chasing the dreams of others...  I have produced direct statements from the same organisation that contradict you...  so sorry.. if you have them, produce them.. or just forget quoting.

Double standards - You shout down meatcleaver because of his 'mistake' - yet you cannot be strong enough to uphold your own?
 
You misinterpreted the section you quoted and took it out of context to complete your own stance and did not place out the BMAs entire Law and ethics document as it would have counter argued your personal viewpoint..  You stated a relatively small section  the non policy from its non - therapeutic circumcision and completely ignored the rest.  You may be commanding me to do whatever you 'want' - but as you have just complained about on another thread - you find people keep repeating themselves and you find that amusing.  It would take you moments to click the 2nd page here to see the statement - and I have even cited where it is to be found - if you were even slightly concerned about anyone elses ideas except you own.  Instead, you are prefering to shout people down and misuse text to get your 'point ' across.  I deal in fact, not anothers fiction.
 
Peace and Rapture



Brosco -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:18:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Tell me what languages you speak and I will provide you with references on the internet.

Why bother? It is a waste of time. He is not a rational person, and therefore cannot distinguish between facts and opinions. Any fact that you present him with in his mind merely is an opinion and because it is not his opinion it in his mind by definition is wrong. He is just obstructing rational discussion, pulling your legs. As soon as I know how to block him on this side he will be blocked.


Its very easy - all you have to is left click on my nickname
<-------  over there... i'm sure you can find it...   it says BROSCO
when ya click on that it creates a new window with my profile...  in there is an option to block me.. its really easy  :)



Rule -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:20:09 AM)

There: blocked, as the first one on this side. Blocked him on the other side too. He had an empty profile as well.



darkinshadows -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:22:47 AM)

Erin - if you read what you have posted - morals and ethics are different - and you have proved that.  They are finely entwined - but there is a difference.
 
I have already apologised to bandit - my post isnt about faith or morals.  It is based on ethics.
 
Whilst I appriciate your post - I do not see the reason for it to be shouted at people in such large letters.  The proof is made - and I do find it disheartening that people feel they have to make their point by either shouting or using bold letters to highlight a point that only strengthened my original point.
 
I cannot help but feel slightly saddened by the tone of your response.
 
Peace and Rapture
 
I am editing my post to just add as I do not believe I was very clear.
ethics comes from the greek 'ethos' - meaning character/personality
moral is latin and means 'custom'
They are not synonymous and they do not imply each other.  They do both distinguish between right and wrong, but that is where they end.  Morals are a majority and authoritive decision and religious/cultural (they say - you do) - ethics are personal and scientific based on fact (they prove - you do).



Brosco -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:24:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

There: blocked, as the first one on this side. Blocked him on the other side too. He had an empty profile as well.


what a stupid wanker - of course if the dummy blocks me he cant see my profile... sighssssssssss



heartfeltsub -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:25:32 AM)

No he meant there is no information on your profile, no words of introduction, no listing of what you are looking for, just a standard empty profile.



darkinshadows -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:27:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brosco

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

There: blocked, as the first one on this side. Blocked him on the other side too. He had an empty profile as well.


what a stupid wanker - of course if the dummy blocks me he cant see my profile... sighssssssssss
 
That isnt what He said and You know it.  Again - misinterpretation.
Does name calling prove your point?
 
I have firm belief in the moderators, thankfully.



NINASHARP -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:28:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

No he meant there is no information on your profile, no words of introduction, no listing of what you are looking for, just a standard empty profile.


Go figure!

Nina



sabswife -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:29:11 AM)

at the risk of being flamed, if people are comfortable with their choices and why they chose them, they feel no need to get angry and defensive....



Rule -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:30:12 AM)

It is immensely satisfying to read the message: "This user is on your "block" list and the message has been blocked". [8D][:)][8D][:)][8D][:)][8D][:)][8D]



Brosco -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:34:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

No he meant there is no information on your profile, no words of introduction, no listing of what you are looking for, just a standard empty profile.


uuummm if I aint looking do i need to fill out my wonderful desirable details and then regularly respond that I aint looking?



mistoferin -> RE: Need a health answer(about sircumcision) (6/14/2006 6:36:57 AM)

well actually the shouting part was a mistake...I was attempting to go up one character size but I did it on the collarme page....should have done it in Word which is what I normally do, I didn't realize that the collarme reply page would be that much different...for that I sincerely apologize

I did reread what I posted....maybe you and I just interpret it differently........

The point of my initial post on here is that, once again, what the OP was seeking has been disregarded so that everyone could carry on an unrelated argument.

I do understand what is happening here though...you kindly explained it to me the other day....

quote:


Well if this is true then it makes the miscommunications that occur on these boards so often perfectly clear. It doesn't matter what a poster posts...or what their intent is....because in the end it comes down to some people's views...even if they are representations of misinterpretation of the original message and intent of the OP???  


quote:


Exactly erin.  Which is why posts so often go off topic.  People have the desire to make themselves heard - to get across their own POV.  Messageboards like these, communicating verbally - isn't about agreeing.  Its about placing over a PPOV and finding someone with a similar notion to your own and becoming friends or finding common ground.  People like to feel they are making a difference - that they are contributing - and that maybe - somewhere - someones POV will alter.



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