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RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 3:41:17 PM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Why is it assumed that government located the furthest (not geographic) from the people is brilliant? Somehow better?


Yes, why would you want the resources of a whole nation at the ready to help in disaster relief of a particular state.. Such thinking is really fucked up.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 3:46:46 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Come to that, why is it assumed that Federal governance is bad but State governance is brilliant?



Why is it assumed that government located the furthest (not geographic) from the people is brilliant? Somehow better?



For one, they are better able to coordinate resources from various parts of the country.

For another, they have the military backing needed to assist in search and rescue, as well as rebuilding and repairing.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/10/30/163933160/video-coast-guard-rescues-14-forced-by-sandy-to-abandon-tall-ship

Immobilizing such forces is better left to the federal government.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 3:58:34 PM   
FMRFGOPGAL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I don't know that they are other solutions, just part of the solution.   This is even too big for the federal government to handle alone, or ISO/Impact or any single organization.

Sort of like the Telephone exchange, they are set up in the old days to handle about 10-20% of their subscribers picking up at once.   With the advent of voice and data, internet and so on..............and our disaster rescources couldnt be staffed 24/7/365 and funded year round for the largest possible emergencies.... 


I think Ron here has the best assessment. The scale of the disasters we're starting to see, is clearly trending towards greater frequency and substantially. Whether it's climate change, or just a trend, clearly the resources need to be basically how they've been for a long time. Big charity, big government (and make the government as economical and as efficient as possible). Sorry, these are very large events and a modern society needs to rebuild quickly ( a lesson we learned the hard way with Katrina... Smaller government President at the wheel). Basically, if you don't, what happens is things either slowly or rapidly deteriorate. one the FEMA does better than any organization, public or private is bring it all together. The private organization really soften the blow, but have no real response arm to run into a disaster area. Also, we don't even want to go down the road of these private entities securing the disaster scene. While there have been some serious errors and fuck-ups YOU DON'T want Welcome Wagon's version of Blackwater Security patrolling your neighborhood. That's best left to the police and National Guard.
   Speaking of "Hacks" by the way, gig anyone catch Mitt's 'not so big' canned goods drive. In an attempt to stage a little publicity stunt, Mitt called together the event. While folks were generous, it was  like any other urban can drive. Romney came with an inflated speech and you could hear the speech clearly written for a bigger crown and greater success. He'd clearly been expecting some grandiose turn-out and you could hear the "who wrote this?" in his voice as he read. It clearly had gaffs implying he'd marshaled some gargantuan rescue effort and he stumbled on references to :"these goods" as though it was written by some Vassar girl. who'd normally handled the business of sleeves up charity by sending in the Butlers.
    Romney's speeches really aren't impressive through the unfiltered lens of CSPAN, that's for sure.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 4:10:41 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Why is it assumed that government located the furthest (not geographic) from the people is brilliant? Somehow better?


Yes, why would you want the resources of a whole nation at the ready to help in disaster relief of a particular state.. Such thinking is really fucked up.

Once again SO succinctly put!!!!!!

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(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 4:18:50 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Come to that, why is it assumed that Federal governance is bad but State governance is brilliant?



Why is it assumed that government located the furthest (not geographic) from the people is brilliant? Somehow better?



For one, they are better able to coordinate resources from various parts of the country.

For another, they have the military backing needed to assist in search and rescue, as well as rebuilding and repairing.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2012/10/30/163933160/video-coast-guard-rescues-14-forced-by-sandy-to-abandon-tall-ship

Immobilizing such forces is better left to the federal government.

A friend on another site pointed out something along these lines. The US Army, and the reserves and NG, have bought a humvee portable water filtration system.
http://www.usar.army.mil/resources/Pages/Specialized-Army-Reserve-unit-provides-water-purification-for-exercise.aspx

I'm having some trouble tracking down how many are available but it seems certain that NG units with this capability make an excellent resource for the nation as a whole. Just consider if each state's NG maintains a couple of these. That's sufficient to provide the needs of a neighborhood after a small accident or disaster but insufficient in cases like this. However with the President able to nationalize these units and deploy them as needed the nation as a whole has a disaster response capability that would be impossible for the individual states.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 4:22:03 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FMRFGOPGAL

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I don't know that they are other solutions, just part of the solution.   This is even too big for the federal government to handle alone, or ISO/Impact or any single organization.

Sort of like the Telephone exchange, they are set up in the old days to handle about 10-20% of their subscribers picking up at once.   With the advent of voice and data, internet and so on..............and our disaster rescources couldnt be staffed 24/7/365 and funded year round for the largest possible emergencies.... 


I think Ron here has the best assessment. The scale of the disasters we're starting to see, is clearly trending towards greater frequency and substantially. Whether it's climate change, or just a trend, clearly the resources need to be basically how they've been for a long time. Big charity, big government (and make the government as economical and as efficient as possible). Sorry, these are very large events and a modern society needs to rebuild quickly ( a lesson we learned the hard way with Katrina... Smaller government President at the wheel). Basically, if you don't, what happens is things either slowly or rapidly deteriorate. one the FEMA does better than any organization, public or private is bring it all together. The private organization really soften the blow, but have no real response arm to run into a disaster area. Also, we don't even want to go down the road of these private entities securing the disaster scene. While there have been some serious errors and fuck-ups YOU DON'T want Welcome Wagon's version of Blackwater Security patrolling your neighborhood. That's best left to the police and National Guard.
   Speaking of "Hacks" by the way, gig anyone catch Mitt's 'not so big' canned goods drive. In an attempt to stage a little publicity stunt, Mitt called together the event. While folks were generous, it was  like any other urban can drive. Romney came with an inflated speech and you could hear the speech clearly written for a bigger crown and greater success. He'd clearly been expecting some grandiose turn-out and you could hear the "who wrote this?" in his voice as he read. It clearly had gaffs implying he'd marshaled some gargantuan rescue effort and he stumbled on references to :"these goods" as though it was written by some Vassar girl. who'd normally handled the business of sleeves up charity by sending in the Butlers.
    Romney's speeches really aren't impressive through the unfiltered lens of CSPAN, that's for sure.


The funny thing is if any staffer had bothered contacting the Red Cross, or any other major disaster group, they would have been told that a can drive is not desirable, pallets of canned goods are but individual cans are not. Raising cash or doing a blood drive would have been of much more direct aid to those impacted.

(in reply to FMRFGOPGAL)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 4:26:35 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
It might be interesting to invert your question:What is it about federal that makes it such an absurd notion? Why does it seem almost painful for some folks on the right wing to recognize the need for a national government?


I don't know anyone on the right who says the national (federal) government should not be. The question is, what should the federal government's role be?

It's statements like this from the article - [i]The agency was put back in working order by President Obama, but ideology still blinds Republicans to its value. Many don’t like the idea of free aid for poor people, or they think people should pay for their bad decisions, which this week includes living on the East Coast which make it a hit piece. It's designed to be inflammatory and unidirectional.

The article treats as absurd and declares certain (It's an absurd notion) what very well may not be absurd at all.

Take this turn of phrase - it’s fully in line with decades of Republican resistance to federal emergency planning. One could also talk about Democrat resistance to small government too.

I will accept that you don't like the idea of free aid for poor people but are you really of the opinion that folks should pay for their own bad decisions.....including choosing to live on the east coast ?
Cause if that's the case I'm calling bullshit,that whole west coast is nothing but a disaster(tsunamis,earthquakes and such)disaster waiting to happen.
So when you come down to it of the two coasts east coasters made a way better decision



You really do have a comprehension issue. Sad, but true.

_____________________________

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(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 4:41:47 PM   
slvemike4u


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No I don't....
But you just might have a humor issue
sad but,apparently,true

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 5:15:19 PM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

No I don't....
But you just might have a humor issue
sad but,apparently,true



Sorry, I'm beat and didn't catch your humor.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 5:21:31 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
No problem

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 6:03:35 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Disagree. The Federal Govt acts as 'Insuror of Last Resort.' That's why we pay taxes


Vince I pay state taxes as well so paying federal taxes is no measure of aid? It should be the States responsibility to provide aid for their citizens and adjacent States and citizens should not be required to pay through their federal taxes.

Unless

The disaster is beyond the resources or ability of the State to pay. Then they should pay as much as possible towards the cost of the disaster.

Here in Missouri we have been turned down for aid before because the federal government has said the local disaster was well within the States ability to pay… And that is as it should be.

States and local municipalities often allow people to build in high risk areas, like flood plains and ocean fronts, when they should not and I don’t feel I should be responsible for their repairs.

I do not want anyone denied aid and don't care who provides it but I do want a reckoning of cost and the proper authority providing their fair share of the costs.

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(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 6:31:19 PM   
FMRFGOPGAL


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Joined: 9/1/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The funny thing is if any staffer had bothered contacting the Red Cross, or any other major disaster group, they would have been told that a can drive is not desirable, pallets of canned goods are but individual cans are not. Raising cash or doing a blood drive would have been of much more direct aid to those impacted.


I'd make a generous donation to see Romney give blood... would I get to pick the manner in which it's extracted. Oh wait, losing your ass-cherry to a big guy fresh out of prison isn't really a good way to "give blood" is it?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 6:44:33 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I don't know anyone on the right who says the national (federal) government should not be.

Grover Norquist comes to mind: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." I believe a fair number of folks have taken his anti-tax pledge.

The "starve the beast" mindset comes to mind as well.


quote:

The question is, what should the federal government's role be?

True. And the NYT folks offered their thoughts on the subject.


quote:

Many don’t like the idea of free aid for poor people, or they think people should pay for their bad decisions, which this week includes living on the East Coast.

Is that not a viewpoint among some folks on the right? That seemed to be where Romney was going with his "47 percent" remarks, and I think it underlay the zeal with which some people seized on the "Obamaphone lady." Variations on this statement are not unknown even among our CM sages.


quote:

It's designed to be inflammatory and unidirectional.

As I noted earlier in the thread, it's an editorial--and clearly identified as such. Editorials tend to take a particular viewpoint. It's pointed and provocative (nature of the beast), but "inflammatory" seems a stretch.


quote:

The article treats as absurd and declares certain (It's an absurd notion) what very well may not be absurd at all.

Again, it's an editorial, not a news story. The NYT editors offered their perspective. You're welcome to disagree.


quote:

Take this turn of phrase - it’s fully in line with decades of Republican resistance to federal emergency planning.

I don't know enough to assess the accuracy of this statement about "Republican resistance." I did find an interesting CSM article on some of what Romney's said on the issue.


quote:

One could also talk about Democrat resistance to small government too.

Indeed one could, and I suspect plenty of editorials and opinion pieces have done so. My response would likely note that we tried small, state-driven government under the Articles of Confederation, and it didn't work. It strikes me as even more of a mirage given the complexities of life today. Ymmv, of course.

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(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 6:47:43 PM   
slvemike4u


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Man I wish I could do work like that
Nice Job DC,sort of a deconstruction of a flawed argument,I like the way you did it....all I do is humor and snark,you actually hold up the fallacy's for all to see.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 8:12:58 PM   
vincentML


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Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

Vince I pay state taxes as well so paying federal taxes is no measure of aid? It should be the States responsibility to provide aid for their citizens and adjacent States and citizens should not be required to pay through their federal taxes.

Butch, it is the responsibility of the States. Ask NJ Gov Christie. FEMA provides resources and coordination when requested by the States. This hurricane was 900 miles wide and moving across state borders at a fairly quick pace. The extimated cost of damage is $20B and climbing. What are you going on about? How are state governors supposed to coordinate a response when they are knee deep in chaos? Sorry, Butch, but I think you are operating in some parallel universe.

Why shouldn't it be on citizens to give aid through their Federal taxes?
Why isn't disaster relief part of our National Security?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 8:32:13 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
And if its anything like it was after Katrina, insurance companies will find ways not to pay.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 8:56:55 PM   
FMRFGOPGAL


Posts: 763
Joined: 9/1/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

They provide sleeping bags and stolen hotel shampoo (all donated) to wash and sleep your asscrack.

Government provides housing solutions, grants, low interest loans, pumps, people and so on.

Like I said, a small bit player, but a PART and only a small part of the solution to this crisis.



Can you even imagine the amount of potable water that needs to get into New Jersey in the next few days? Without a federal response how would the water even get distributed if charities could supply all that H20.


I imagine that our socialist government will buy it up, and truck it in from other states, and preside over one of the largest redistributions of water wealth in our nations history.


There are "Obamabots" all over Poland Springs, Me loading trucks. I am expecting a conspiracy theory, with a completely unrelated link from rob amy time now.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/30/2012 9:03:08 PM   
FMRFGOPGAL


Posts: 763
Joined: 9/1/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I don't know anyone on the right who says the national (federal) government should not be.

quote:


Grover Norquist comes to mind: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." I believe a fair number of folks have taken his anti-tax pledge.



Someone should check on Grover's wife. That statement sounds both Freudian an ominous.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/31/2012 7:42:06 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Come to that, why is it assumed that Federal governance is bad but State governance is brilliant?



Why is it assumed that government located the furthest (not geographic) from the people is brilliant? Somehow better?


How about addressing the point I raised rather than evading the question?

quote:

Last time I checked, they're [Fed and State] both funded from the same fount that libertarians should find abhorrent, but only seem to have an issue with if the agency it's paying is based in Washington not their neck of the woods.


Or can you demonstrate that State Governments aren't funded through taxation?

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(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: NYT hack piece - 10/31/2012 7:53:31 AM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Come to that, why is it assumed that Federal governance is bad but State governance is brilliant?

How about addressing the point I raised rather than evading the question?



Two different issues there as bad =/ brilliance. The Fed isn't bad unless one equates such to overstepping one's bounds (argumentative). Would be hard to say the federal government is good given where this country is right now.

States can hardly be said to be brilliant anymore than the federal government. One thing about the states, there are 50 of them. 50 different laboratories in a sense. Smaller. More manageable. Easier for the people to control.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 10/31/2012 7:54:20 AM >


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 60
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