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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 11:39:00 AM

Kana

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quote:

Sure, we get a lot of people asking for advice that *are* in abusive situations. You were in one. But don't color everyone and everything with that brush. B/c now that starts making YOU the abuser.

And I thoroughly disagree here. It doesn't make her the abuser-it allows her to play a much sicker role, the victim....which allows for LT bitterness (But don't you see how wronged I've been...which turns into entitlement) as well as forsaking any and all responsibility.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 12:52:56 PM

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I believe we are speaking a bit at cross purposes here. I am talking about when a victim internalizes their victim-hood to the extent that they literally become abusive.

A prime example is the female raped by a male who decides "all males are rapists."

By painting all males with the rapist brush, and thus viewing all males as sexual predators, the person acquires a mindset that so negatively impacts their perception of who males are, that is does become abusive (JMO).

Which is a bit different from what you are speaking of in terms of the victim mindset of entitlement to be bitter forever, which permanently abdicates any responsibility for *being* the victim.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 1:04:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just my personal opinion that I am sure has been expresses here already…but one for those who tally scores.

I am a firm believer that no one will do anything with free will that they do not deep down desire. Some have spoken of not wanting sex with the same gender but do it because their dominate other demands it. Will to me this is a cop out… the act of submission to the dom’s desire is no different than the desire for same sex. Both want the contact even if for different reasons.

Sooooo the point is mutual pleasure and damn the syntax.

Butch

I absolutely hate ff sex. I would not like it if she decided that's what he wanted. I don't desire it at all. If he woke up and decided today that it was something he no longer finds desireable, it's not gonna bother me one bit. I will draw a sigh of relief actually. I would do it though because that's what he wants...period. There's no desire in me to do it because it makes him happy. Yeah, I like to make him happy, but I'm not gonna go out there and find him a girl just to make him happy, unless he told me to, but I still won't like it and I'd be grumbling the entire time. That I'm happy because he's happy is just a small benefit that I can look forward to. But definitely not a desireable act whatsoever.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 5:07:38 PM

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I was not talking about cleaning tiolets, or jumping up to get a glass of water, or working a job you hate to pay bills, etc.
I am not talking about going to a gathering of people you dont particularly like to just please a person, because thats what you do, you do things you don't like to do to please your partner.

I was referring to acts that violate the very fiber of a persons core, moral fibers, deep beliefs, and I think "forced Bi" is in that category.

That is my a personal opinion. Really didn't mean to strike any raw nerves.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 7:53:21 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

Sure, we get a lot of people asking for advice that *are* in abusive situations. You were in one. But don't color everyone and everything with that brush. B/c now that starts making YOU the abuser.

And I thoroughly disagree here. It doesn't make her the abuser-it allows her to play a much sicker role, the victim....which allows for LT bitterness (But don't you see how wronged I've been...which turns into entitlement) as well as forsaking any and all responsibility.

Whoops sorry Kana and( any cloony followers), but that is one big heap of BS there. How do you take my opinion and quote and make a victim statement out of it?
Victims cry and whine. No crying here. I state opinions whether popular or not on this forum, no problems standing alone here and I believe in building people up and giving them individual strength, not dependent strength.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 8:11:23 PM

kdsub

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quote:

But definitely not a desireable act whatsoever

littlewonder i think you are missing my point...you would do it to please him... that is your desire not the act....but still a desire

Butch

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 8:28:04 PM

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I think this topic, like everything else here, is about semantics and context.

After all many people agree to consensual non-consensual force in many acts.

I am likely to do many things with one person who I am in a relationship with. I don't usually say no, unless it was something that would damage me.

I understand people who are straight and hate the thought of forced bi still willing to do it because of their commitment.

For me, one of my limits is sharing, so if a man requested bi, I would say hell no. And I have had sexual experiences with women, but only without any men there.

So it is not about the bi thing it would be about the no sharing limit, for me.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 10:37:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

~fr

“what's the point of forced bi, and does it even exist?”
Nope, doesn’t exist. They could always refuse.

Totally agree

quote:

Even in prison, you can fight to the death before getting raped. So it is a voluntary choice.

Its quite disturbing that you think like that. Are you saying that men can't be raped by other men? that really its consensual?
What if its three or four men holding him down?
Did you know that when a woman gets raped she often doesn't fight because she fears death? does that make it consensual?

Well, it means they chose to submit doesn't it . . . albeit a wise choice. Some rape victims have trouble with their submission to it, not the sex part. Almost everyone has fucked somebody or fucked someone at sometime when they didn't want to. Whether it was indulging a lover when you really didn't want to, a courtesy fuck to a date you didn't really want to fuck or whatever. No big deal. With rape, it usually isn't the sex act that sticks in their craw, it's the submission.

For many, rape isn't a huge issue. They get over it, shake it off. Nothing super traumatic. For others, the control issue, losing control and submitting causes them trauma. Some people think they are more in control of their life than they really are and then they get in a situation, rape, natural disaster, death of a loved one, robbery etc. They come away traumatized.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/4/2012 11:53:31 PM

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Makes popcorn and watches the crowd lose their mind over that point of view.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 12:13:05 AM

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i actually agree with RS on that point. i freely admit that i'm a control freak with my life. that has come from having absolutely no control when i was a child, and the things that happened to me. were i to be raped for real i think it would be exactly the fact that i'd have to give in to it to potentially save my life that would get me the most. who knows.....outside of the person being a rapest i may have actually liked him, may have fucked him anyway.....but, and this is a big but, no matter how i felt about a person it doesn't mean i'd give myself to them in that way.

needles

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 9:54:05 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: samdarella

Makes popcorn and watches the crowd lose their mind over that point of view.

Why would someone lose their mind over a voice of sanity?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 10:26:27 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Why would someone lose their mind over a voice of sanity?

Because round these parts we use the word "submit" to mean "consensually submit". That's not what he's talking about. Perhaps had he said "forced to submit" or somesuch? Had he said used the concept "submit [at gun point]" to describe a D/s relationship people would've gone nuts.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 11:57:43 AM

Aswad

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Yeah, that gets special status in some people's views.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 1:41:07 PM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

Sure, we get a lot of people asking for advice that *are* in abusive situations. You were in one. But don't color everyone and everything with that brush. B/c now that starts making YOU the abuser.

And I thoroughly disagree here. It doesn't make her the abuser-it allows her to play a much sicker role, the victim....which allows for LT bitterness (But don't you see how wronged I've been...which turns into entitlement) as well as forsaking any and all responsibility.

Whoops sorry Kana and( any cloony followers), but that is one big heap of BS there. How do you take my opinion and quote and make a victim statement out of it?
Victims cry and whine. No crying here. I state opinions whether popular or not on this forum, no problems standing alone here and I believe in building people up and giving them individual strength, not dependent strength.

Just calling things as I see em, based not so much on the one post alone, but a long term pattern.
Not trying to be an ass about it, but being honest in my appraisal.(And I bet I'm not alone in thinking it)
And those who've read my posts over the years will know that I rarely venture to offer opinions or advice. I speak from experience's that I've had or things I've watched others undergo.
But I don't make personal attacks, and I don't rashly throw things out there. In fact, I'd say that I tend to play my cards pretty close to the vest about these sorts of things.
And I try real hard not to speak out my ass.
In this case, I spent years working in the field of mental health, dealt with hundreds of people who'd been in bad/abusive relationships and watched how they react.
So yeah, I could be wrong, be completely off base (Which is something I always aware of. I'm not an absolutist about these sorts of things (Only morals and values)-I accept that I'm human and I tend to be wrong a whole helluva lot more than I am right-hence my rectitude when it comes to offering opinions), but I will note that anytime someone reacts vociferously to a thing, it's usually because it hits something inside.
Just saying.

And with that, I don't wanna detract from/derail the thread or upset the mods so if you'd like to continue this discourse I'd be happy to do it privately on the other side.
Again, not trying to be a prick or hurtful, but speaking the truth as I see it..

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 1:47:00 PM

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quote:

Well, it means they chose to submit doesn't it . . . albeit a wise choice. Some rape victims have trouble with their submission to it, not the sex part. Almost everyone has fucked somebody or fucked someone at sometime when they didn't want to. Whether it was indulging a lover when you really didn't want to, a courtesy fuck to a date you didn't really want to fuck or whatever. No big deal. With rape, it usually isn't the sex act that sticks in their craw, it's the submission.

No, not necessarily. What if they were beaten, bludgeoned, or drugged to the point of losing consciousness and raped then? Or, as said earlier, held down? Is it still the act of submission that bothers the offended party? You are painting with a very broad brush here.

< Message edited by Damacis -- 11/5/2012 1:48:38 PM >

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 1:54:30 PM

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You said this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I was referring to acts that violate the very fiber of a persons core, moral fibers, deep beliefs, and I think "forced Bi" is in that category.

You seem to have missed that I said this:

quote:

He knows me well enough to know that although it is pathetically easy for him to get me to a point I would do anything for him, he can't push those limits, b/c to do so would be damaging to me.

It's nothing I have to worry about in the least, b/c he's not interested in damaging me, I know that.

That lw and mos have established relationships where they share their d-types limits does not mean they feel "so deep a need to be with someone I would do anything they asked." It's not an issue of being needy, it's an issue of TRUST.

And that Kana said this:

quote:

And with caution. Don't go running willy-nilly into shit. Think about the ramifications, the long term effects down the road. Ask yourself, "Is the risk worth the payoff?"
Am I willing to gamble everything in our relationship for this one thing. And if so, what's the price I'M gonna pay, because sure as hell, I'm gonna pay one too.
It might not be anything readily visible, but the internal dynamics of the relationship are gonna change, and that means I'm gonna change too

So who's talking about things that violate a person's core?

From what I've read, most replies have made it clear the dominant would never do such a thing, even if the s-type "has no limits."

You know chatter, I've been trying to deal with you, b/c I know you're trying to learn, but then you make wild statements with little basis in reality. Sure, you're entitled to your opinion same as everyone else, but dang, some of yours don't exactly help your credibility.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 11/5/2012 2:47:13 PM >

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 1:56:22 PM

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quote:

I think this topic, like everything else here, is about semantics and context.

Often that is what gets us in trouble when trying to discuss a topic in this format. Sometimes I've thought how different the conversation would go if we were all sitting around someone's living room with a glass of wine (or your beverage of choice) discussing things face to face.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 11/5/2012 2:48:18 PM >

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 4:40:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Damacis

quote:

Well, it means they chose to submit doesn't it . . . albeit a wise choice. Some rape victims have trouble with their submission to it, not the sex part. Almost everyone has fucked somebody or fucked someone at sometime when they didn't want to. Whether it was indulging a lover when you really didn't want to, a courtesy fuck to a date you didn't really want to fuck or whatever. No big deal. With rape, it usually isn't the sex act that sticks in their craw, it's the submission.

No, not necessarily. What if they were beaten, bludgeoned, or drugged to the point of losing consciousness and raped then? Or, as said earlier, held down? Is it still the act of submission that bothers the offended party? You are painting with a very broad brush here.

Yeah, I'm going to agree with Damacis here. In my case, it was simply that I was not strong enough to push him off of me, while beating my fists at him and crying out "No...Stop it...Get off of me..." etc.

It was being violated against my will, and completely unable to stop it, that bothered me so much.

I do agree in some cases it IS a choice, albeit a rather horrific one. But in so many other cases there's no choice about it at all.

But this is really off the topic of consensually forced bi.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 7:00:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

~fr

“what's the point of forced bi, and does it even exist?”
Nope, doesn’t exist. They could always refuse.

Totally agree

quote:

Even in prison, you can fight to the death before getting raped. So it is a voluntary choice.

Its quite disturbing that you think like that. Are you saying that men can't be raped by other men? that really its consensual?
What if its three or four men holding him down?
Did you know that when a woman gets raped she often doesn't fight because she fears death? does that make it consensual?

This is an excellent point Maria makes, which speaks to my personal experiences. Different people react differently to trauma, including rape. There is the fight, flight, or freeze reaction, and for the most part, one doesn't know how they'll react, or not react, until it actually occurs.

I have spent years loathing myself because of the times I froze while being beaten or raped, instead of running or fighting back. It was NOT a choice for me...my entire being made me freeze, and I could not have done otherwise, but I did not learn that until just this year. I now understand I am, in my very DNA, wired to freeze, and there is NOTHING wrong with it, and I was NOT bad for being unable to do otherwise. It may, in fact, be as my therapist says...what actually kept me alive, kept me from being killed. Now I can finally release that shame and self-hatred I harbored all those decades.

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RE: "forced" Bi, what's the point? - 11/5/2012 7:17:00 PM

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FR

Me, I always find these sorts of issues a lot easier to deal with if I don't try to resolve them. It's neither forced, nor consensual - it's both. It's contradictory. That's why it's fun. Any takers? No? There hardly ever are.

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