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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:35:44 AM

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No sweat Aswad perhaps it got lost in translation or my piss poor writing style.

I'm saying that I'm confirmed libertarian in all aspects of my life until it comes to my kid & then there is a huge dilemma as the parental conservative has a valid counter argument thatr is also as natural to me as the libertarian.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:55:44 AM

Aswad

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My mistake, then. Sorry.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 11:58:26 AM

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No need to apologise as far as I'm concerned.

Pete.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 1:36:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

In France you would expect to find a woman openly breast feeding her baby in a restaurant or in the park.

Isn't this normal in the USA, too?

I object to people changing diapers in a restaurant if they don't take it to the restrooms, but I don't see why one would object to people breastfeeding in public. Sometimes, people will eat a salami sandwich in public, and some don't like the smell of salami, but it would be pretty crazy to ban salami on that grounds alone. If something bothers someone, what's the problem with simply asking politely if the offending party would care to take it elsewhere? (I do have a problem with mothers getting upset at a polite inquiry, though. A simple "No, sorry, I'm staying." should suffice.)

Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case; there have been a few threads on breast feeding and they always become contentious.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 3:56:46 PM

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I did have a long answer to this but the window just vanished!

So to sumarise...
As a Brit living in the prudish UK, I find the views on here even more prudish that I care to imagine or support.
Even my teenage kids would find some of the views on here unacceptably prudish.
As a naturist myself, they quite happily accept nudity by both sexes and they don't see anything untoward in various states of (un)dress.

A lot will depend on how you are brought up by your parents and where you live with reference to your peers, your beliefs and your community.
Most of the shock-horror, rage and uproar comes from the adults - very rarely from the kids.
My kids have seen it all and don't bat an eyelid. Yet from some of the replies I see on here, they should be locked away from such exposure and those exposing should be hung, drawn and quartered regardless of the situation. And given what I see around me - both adults and kids alike - my two kids are more tolerant, more open, more understanding and better balanced as adults than almost everyone else I have met or encountered.

However, I honestly feel that a TG should at least respect others and use the relevant changing rooms/toilets as befits their physical state.
In other words, if a male TG still has his tackle then he/she should dress appropriately (as a male) and use the male facilities.
To go flouncing into the ladies area is asking for trouble and to me would be highly disrespectful of the very gender he is trying to immitate.
Once he/she has the full op and gets the tackle removed, that is another matter entirely.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 4:05:31 PM

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Playing devils advocate her.

What gives you the right to impose your nudity/kink on anyone else? It is fundamentally different to the transgender issue in that it is still a choice.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 4:14:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Playing devils advocate her.

What gives you the right to impose your nudity/kink on anyone else? It is fundamentally different to the transgender issue in that it is still a choice.

It has nothing to do with kink at all.
It's all to do with how different people view the same subject matter and their reactions to it.

I don't think of TG as a kink, to me it's a life-style choice and everyone has that choice to make.
But I DO think that a TG, when not even half-way through their gender re-assignment and still has their male bits, should have more respect for the other people around them.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 5:42:31 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ninebelowzero

Playing devils advocate her.

What gives you the right to impose your nudity/kink on anyone else? It is fundamentally different to the transgender issue in that it is still a choice.

The Devil's Advocate General has asked me to relay these questions:

What gives us the right to impose our taboos on anyone else?

Or to collectively restrict others' bodies for our taboos?

We have our own hijab (lit.: modesty), is that it?

What punishment for lack of hijab is right?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

EDITed for modesty.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 11/5/2012 5:49:05 PM >

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 5:48:26 PM

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merely this that it's recognised as common courtesy not to impose our kink on the nilla world.

It isn't a habib or whateveryou wanna call it, just courtesy.

I bet these nudists cover up or stay in when it's minus 40 witha force 9 gale though

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 6:02:15 PM

Aswad

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Nudism is not a kink, Ninebelowzero.

As with parkour, it is about freedom and naturalness, but often misunderstood as something else.

Now, hijab does translate into English as modesty. In the West, to be dressed hijab might be to have long skirts and little cleavage these days, though in your youth (as in mine, around my parts), a headscarf might be appropriate hijab for a grown woman. Standards change. Human beings, unfortunately, rarely do.

See, you're calling to impose hijab- specifically, your modern idea of it- on people that are more modern than modernity, such as nudists. It, of course, passes for courtesy when it's your perception of hijab that is imposed, and barbarism when it's the orthodox Sunni perception of hijab that is imposed. The latter, last I heard, you were considering banning, the way France already has (and, from what MariaB says, it seems they at least have more integrity in doing so than most).

Now, just like we don't chop people's hands off for stealing anymore, we don't pour acid on women for not dressing hijab. Instead, we give people fines or jail time for stealing, or for not dressing hijab. Which might be acceptable, if it weren't for the fact that lots of people will thumb their noses both up and down the modesty spectrum, and denounce punishments accepted elsewhere for lack of hijab while often writing off stern punishments for other things as acceptable on account of the different standards in severity of punishments.

I don't much care what laws and standards people want to enact; that's their business, and I can't expect humanity to be mature.

But I do care about double standards, and I hope you do, too.

I hope you'll consider it carefully.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: Yes, cold and wind equals covering up. We have few nudists in Norway, if any.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: A quandary - 11/5/2012 6:05:15 PM

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Well I never saw any there

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RE: A quandary - 11/7/2012 1:01:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: theRose4U

As for US being prude blah blah. British, middle east, muslims & southern baptists top the list for conservatism. As we argued on the other post a muslim foundation can screw up you life even if you later decide to be athiest...same can follow for baptists followed by good ole catholic guilt. British in my experience have only 2 types...missionary sex lights off & kinky. While there are obviously flavors in between ,its grey versions of the 2 camps. Middle east you have covered or conservative, that horse got beat to death on the other thread.

Actually the UK is a very liberal nation that is far more tolerant of immigrants than most other European countries. The UK possibly has the lowest rate of church attendance in Europe. Most of the churches are either nightclubs, climbing walls or BDSM joints.
I'm sorry you had such a dismal British experience but you must be careful not to judge a nation based on your sexual experience.
In the grand scheme of things Britain would love to be thought of as conservative but conservative it is not, unless of course you live in Surrey or some affluent parts of London!!

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RE: A quandary - 11/8/2012 7:04:16 AM

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Using FR:

Children are far more flexible and much less innocent than many adults give them credit for. I seriously doubt seeing the opposite sex's genitalia is going to traumatize anyone, UNLESS the parents make it a traumatic situation, which is what I believe happened in the locker room. The parents made a big deal out of it.

Regrettably, nudity is still a huge taboo here in the US, and not one I get, but to each their own. it *IS* the way it is here, and I'm making that point for a reason.

Because I do think, given the circumstances, that the TV person should have been more discreet in their actions. Public saunas require the use of a towel, so why the towel was not used to cover the genitalia is beyond me. Any TV in the US *has* to know how sensitive people can be, most especially mothers with children.

Although I don't know the details, from the article alone I would say the action was akin to flaunting. It's like the cock in your face pics. I have great enjoyment of the male nude figure, whether genitalia is exposed or not, but there is a time and place for it. In a common-area sauna where small children could be present is not one of them (JMO).

And yes, I think it's great the US is taking incremental steps in the right direction in terms of ensuring TV people have rights, too. But most people are just not there yet, and most people *are* what a TV is going to have to deal with.

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 11/8/2012 7:19:55 AM >

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RE: A quandary - 11/8/2012 7:48:48 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Children are far more flexible and much less innocent than many adults give them credit for.

More innocent. Parents just don't have a good idea what innocence is.

Generally agree with most of this.

Adults take offense, then inflict trauma, but it's a good idea to anticipate cause and effect. Even if other people are responsible for the actual harm, we can predict that they will do harm, and avoid inspiring them to do so. Kind of like not choosing the dark back alleys when one is going home alone after a night out.

Now that they have a privacy screen up, that seems to be taken care of.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: A quandary - 11/8/2012 7:51:33 AM

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~FR~

based on some of the replies on this thread, I probably would have made a lousy mother. Guess it's good I didn't spawn ;)

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RE: A quandary - 11/8/2012 8:51:55 AM

Aswad

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Oh, I dunno, I'm thinking a few more GTs running around would be a good thing.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: A quandary - 11/8/2012 9:26:45 AM

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You say the sweetest things, dear man! MUCH love and many hugs to you both!!!!

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RE: A quandary - 11/8/2012 12:13:00 PM

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Unfortunately, a number of post had to be removed by two different moderators, that included some very interesting comments that added a great deal to this thread. If you would like a copy of your post that has been removed so that you can re-post it without the quote that made it something that had to be removed, please contact me.

As a moderator, we do not enjoy removing post and hacking up what could have been a very good thread, as well as the fact that it involves a great deal of time and work. To have to remove post and then come back for the very same reason after we have worked a thread and do it again, suggests that some members are not taking into consideration TOS, guidelines, other members or those that must enforce TOS and guidelines.

Please respect other members even if you don’t agree with them and consider your volunteer moderators and the fact that we loose very good information when TOS and guidelines are ignored.

I will thank you not to respond to my post and derail the thread even further. Thank you

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RE: A quandary - 11/10/2012 6:40:55 AM

Aswad

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Rewritten for VAT; please forgive any discontinuities (I didn't get the quotes from the pulled post for context):

As far as I can tell, the average child of previous generations where I live has not enjoyed more innocence at any point in the past twelve centuries or so than they do now. For the most part, it seems to me that it is parents that enjoy the innocence of children, which is a habit our culture has largely imported from the USA, actually.

Of course, predators also enjoy the innocence of children, particularly when artificially bolstered by well-meaning parents. Note that I'm not suggesting that parents are setting their kids up for those intentionally, but rather that they do so unintentionally, out of ignorance and good intentions.

There is no single standard that is universal.

A pulled post asserted that the poster would've been traumatized by seeing the genitals of the opposite sex as a child.

I cannot agree. For one thing, it just doesn't happen where I live. If Alice and Christie are of the same ethnicity, living in two different cultures, and seeing a cock traumatizes Alice, but doesn't traumatize Christie, then it is the difference- the culture- that causes Christie to be traumatized. And we know the reactions from the environment can absolutely be traumatizing to a child. The only alternative explanation I can come up with would be if Christie were, as an individual, too fragile to deal with reality.

There's never been any gender separation in my home, or the homes of anyone I know here that wasn't part of some cult growing up. This helps to equip them with a normal relationship to their bodies and those of others, whereas a shameful relation to the body is just grooming people for all sorts of fancy extra kinks. Now, I don't mind kinks in any way, but these include harmful pathologies, and that is a problem.

As regards transpeople, reality and nature support a blurring of gender lines, as does the law. One may, of course, fight the laws of humans, nature and reality, but I'm not about to laud the effort. Normal children process this sort of thing at whatever age it's presented to them. Reservations about the human body and its variations are taboos originating with the parents. Please don't try to inflict your own taboos on everyone else's kids; no need to let the damage spread.

Lastly, I would note that some cultures are creepily obsessed about sex.

The culture exported from the USA is one of those.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: A quandary - 11/10/2012 6:51:04 AM

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*pokes Aswad.. ALICE was traumatized, not Christie ;) *

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