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RE: Indoctrination - 12/13/2012 2:27:39 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

As I said, you cannot teach patriotism or love of country, you either develop it on your own or you dont have it. Something may trigger it, such as a national disaster like 9/11 or Pearl Harbor, and that may mean you join the military or contribute in some other manner, but some people saw those events and felt nothing.

One more point, patriotism is more often than not taught in the home. Fathers who proudly served instill the sense of patriotism and love of country in their children.

I might point out that I grew up in the sixties and seventies. Patriotism was looked down on by many Americans as a cop out due to the Vietnam war. Incidents like Kent State did not help matters. The majority of Americans did not support the war, and the nightly news reports did nothing to change that. Walter Cronkite who went on record as saying the war would end in a stalemate hurt the war effort.

And of course, let us not forget Hanoi Jane.

Bertrand Russell pointed out in regard to people dying for their country “Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.” I agree, patriotism isn't taught, when you are taught something, you have to think. People are brainwashed into patriotism. My great uncle who spent three years in the trenches in WWI said after three years you learn to think but you are still stupid because you still try to kill the enemy instead of being brave enough to turn round and shoot the bastards who sent you to war.

The anti-Vietnam demonstrations were because affluent middleclass kids were being called up. If it was only poor blacks and whites being called up, I wonder how anti-war those middleclass kids and their parents would have been.

Hanoi Jane was a brave exception that proves the rule. She was one of the few public figures who actually articulated the Vietnam war was a colonial war.

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RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 5:23:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I really do hate to tell you this, but schools cannot get students to be patriotic or love their country. All a school can do is show the benefits of living in the nation of your birth.

Love of country and patriotism comes from something inside a person.

For example, during the Soviet Era, the education system tried to indoctrinate the students into the glories of communism, dedication to the state, etc. It was a majority of Soviet Citizens that led to the down fall of the soviet union, contrary to what the schools tried to teach.

In the United States, love of country and patriotism comes not from what is learned in school, but the appreciation for the freedoms we have, and continue to have, contrary to what some conservatives might claim.

Do you have data for any of that?

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 6:31:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Secondly, prayer, as a part of the school program is banned in public schools.

However, federal law and southern reality are not necessarily the same as evidenced by a number of atheists lawsuits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
But according to the study, more adults are turning away from the religion they were raised in, either by conversion to another religion or denomination or just by stopping going to church, than in the past.

Yeah, I've seen those statistics as well. It looks like religious indoctrination works better in a vacuum than when it has to compete in the free market of ideas. It's still noticeably working though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I also have heard televangelists preach about the fact that schools are teaching evolution, instead of creationism. These same preachers are screaming about the lack religious values being taught in schools.

Despite being illegal creationism does get smuggled in: http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/08/18/7410377-fact-check-does-texas-teach-creationism-in-public-schools-is-it-constitutional?lite

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
As far as religious values, I believe that is up to the family.

I don't have a better solution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
The public school system is there to teach academics, and in the United States, it is not doing that too well at present.

I can't disagree.

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RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 6:36:26 AM

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With the aid of a font size adjustment, I've now looked over your address to the audience and will comment. But first I want to say, this business of claiming that wholly unsupported pronouncements have truth value unless they can be proven wrong comes right out of Fundamentalism's bag of tricks. Not that I'm surprised, because we've been here before. Just sayin, here we are again, yanno?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

What is the evidence for the perceptual processes? Is there any other than reports from patients? ...What is the data that supports the occurrences of "complex experiences" during NDE other than self-reporting? ...Is there any evidence to rule out that the subjective experience occurred during that interval? ...Is there any evidence that awareness of NDE was not available to the patients BEFORE their clinical incidents?

I realize you think those are sharp and intelligent questions, but have you considered what they reveal? They reveal that you are totally ignorant of the underlying studies and the wider literature on the subject. In short, you are in the position of demanding that your claims about something of which you know nothing be accorded truth value on the strength of your ignorance. Don't hold your breath.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 10:01:09 AM

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quote:

But first I want to say, this business of claiming that wholly unsupported pronouncements have truth value unless they can be proven wrong comes right out of Fundamentalism's bag of tricks.

You are saying then that the demand for falsification as a test for truth value has no merit in human inquiry? Quite an amazing statement. But then it is the same defense used by spiritualists early in the 20thC and by purveyors of useless "alternative" medicines and cures even today.

quote:

quote:
ORIGINAL: vincentML

What is the evidence for the perceptual processes? Is there any other than reports from patients? ...What is the data that supports the occurrences of "complex experiences" during NDE other than self-reporting? ...Is there any evidence to rule out that the subjective experience occurred during that interval? ...Is there any evidence that awareness of NDE was not available to the patients BEFORE their clinical incidents?

quote:

RESPONSE: Kirata
I realize you think those are sharp and intelligent questions, but have you considered what they reveal? They reveal that you are totally ignorant of the underlying studies and the wider literature on the subject. In short, you are in the position of demanding that your claims about something of which you know nothing be accorded truth value on the strength of your ignorance. Don't hold your breath.

I asked for evidence. You gave me surmise and opinion. When Kirata has nothing he falls back to his default position: his interlocutor is incapable of understanding or lacking in knowledge. Tiz a transparent and shabby trick he frequently uses.

If you cannot answer the simple and direct questions I asked above, then we are done here. I do not wish to get into a pissing contest. ciao

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/14/2012 10:02:16 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 10:14:13 AM

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quote:

Lets see there is the pledge of allegiance, which ends when you go to middle school.

Give me the child and I will give you the man.

Additionally, interscholastic sports and rivalries develop teamwork and group allegencies later easily transferred to USA! USA! USA! Bomb Away! Bomb Away! Not saying it is successful for every student but . . . it is operative.

Otherwise, meatcleaver and peon have given you quite adequate answers that need no repeating from me.

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 10:21:21 AM

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quote:

Let me ask you a question. When do you think a baby becomes conscious? Not conscious as in awake but as in self-aware and aware of its environment. And why do they become conscious. Why causes it?

Blacksword: I would guess the first cry after it has exited the womb. Some claim prenatal memories, however.

As to the cause, it depends whether you are a vitalist who believes some force is implanted that distinguishes life form from inorganic rocks or if you are a physicalist who believes consciousness is a result of mechanical and electrochemical processes in the brain. I favor the latter, but to each his own.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/14/2012 11:13:57 AM >

(in reply to blacksword404)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 11:06:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

But first I want to say, this business of claiming that wholly unsupported pronouncements have truth value unless they can be proven wrong comes right out of Fundamentalism's bag of tricks.

You are saying then that the demand for falsification as a test for truth value has no merit in human inquiry? Quite an amazing statement.

Not as amazing as you claiming that's what I said. But I'm used to your misrepresentations by now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If you cannot answer the simple and direct questions I asked above, then we are done here.

How astute of you to discover that I haven't been playing your game. When did you first notice this?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/14/2012 11:07:08 AM >

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 12:33:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Let me ask you a question. When do you think a baby becomes conscious? Not conscious as in awake but as in self-aware and aware of its environment. And why do they become conscious. Why causes it?

Are sperm conscious?

(in reply to blacksword404)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 12:44:02 PM

Rule

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I do not know. But they most certainly are alive and they likely are spiritually active (being programmed for various functions).

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(in reply to GotSteel)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 2:02:06 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404
Let me ask you a question. When do you think a baby becomes conscious? Not conscious as in awake but as in self-aware and aware of its environment. And why do they become conscious. Why causes it?

Are sperm conscious?

Damn, I hope not.

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RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 2:17:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I do not know. But they most certainly are alive and they likely are spiritually active (being programmed for various functions).

Surely if they are programed they aren't spiritual. If they are programed they are no more than biological machines. If they have a mind of their own, maybe they are spiritual ( a woolly and meaningless word). the amount of sperm wasted in the word must lead us to believe waste is a natural inbuilt factor.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 2:37:36 PM

Rule

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Something eludes you.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 2:41:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Something eludes you.

Like what?

_____________________________

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RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 3:15:47 PM

Rule

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Perchance you will learn what when you can describe to a blind person the differences between the various colors.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 3:18:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Perchance you will learn what when you can describe to a blind person the differences between the various colors.

This is just sophistry because colours are meaningless to a blind person and as meaningful as the 98.5 % of the electro-magnetic spectrum you can't see, which I suspect you have never missed in going about your daily life..

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 3:21:23 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I do not know. But they most certainly are alive and they likely are spiritually active (being programmed for various functions).

What do you mean by "spiritually active?" Curious.

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 3:47:38 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I do not know. But they most certainly are alive and they likely are spiritually active (being programmed for various functions).

What do you mean by "spiritually active?" Curious.

The Divine keeps track of everything that occurs in our universe. It is questionable whether it also is aware of everything; most processes likely are automated and quickly forgotten - just as I often do not remember what I did in the bathroom.

When something has a purpose, even when it is not aware of having a purpose, this is communicated - observed by - to the Divine and the Divine will enable this purpose if it is opportune and possible. This process of communication to the Divine is a spiritual activity.

In the case of a spermatozoid, its purpose might be to prevent other spermatozoids from another male from getting to the egg cell.

Of course such tiny organisms have a very weak spiritual communication with the Divine. Whereas a more highly evolved organism will have a stronger spiritual communication with the Divine.

It is impossible not to communicate with the Divine. So yeah: even Meatcleaver is spiritually active - he just is not aware that he is.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to vincentML)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 3:55:38 PM

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quote:

When something has a purpose, even when it is not aware of having a purpose, this is communicated - observed by - to the Divine and the Divine will enable this purpose if it is opportune and possible. This process of communication to the Divine is a spiritual activity.

An interesting concept, Rule. But I am a little confused. The sperm communicates its purpose to the Divine even if it is unaware it has a purpose. Does communication presuppose consciousness in the sperm? Or is it sufficient that the consciousness is in the Divine only?

(in reply to Rule)

RE: Indoctrination - 12/14/2012 4:01:58 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
An interesting concept, Rule. But I am a little confused. The sperm communicates its purpose to the Divine even if it is unaware it has a purpose. Does communication presuppose consciousness in the sperm? Or is it sufficient that the consciousness is in the Divine only?

As I said: it is questionable whether the Divine is aware of the purpose of the sperm. I deem it more likely that in the case of such trivia an automated response is performed. It is far more likely that the spiritual communication between the love making parents, or that initiated by a relative or neighbor or a congregation, or even an individual of another species on the other side of the world has a far greater influence than that of the spermatozoid or the bunch of spermatozoids.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to vincentML)

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