Indoctrination (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> Indoctrination (11/12/2012 6:42:06 PM)

I waited until after the elections for this. It seems that most of my RW friends and acquaintances are always ranting about the schools "Indoctrinating" our children away from the one twue way.

let's look at some numbers from this area.
Church is Sun morning for 2 hours, Sun evening 2 hours and Wed evening for one hour.
That is 5 hours/week of Church instruction/week x 50 weeks/year from age 2-18. (2 weeks off)
This equals 4000 hours of instruction in Religious doctrine.

A child starts school at age 6. for the next 6 years, he gets 45 min of science education x 180 days/year = 810 hours (perfect attendance)

For the next 6 years, he gets 50 mins/day (let's be really generous and call it an hour)
This = 1080 hours of education on science.

By the time a child is 18, he has recieved 4000 hours of religious instruction vs 1890 hours (I'm exaggerating it upward OK) of Science instruction.

Just who the fuck is guilty of "Indoctrination"?



dcnovice -> RE: Indoctrination (11/12/2012 6:48:22 PM)

quote:

Church is Sun morning for 2 hours, Sun evening 2 hours and Wed evening for one hour.

That may vary by denomination or congregation. At St. Margaret's, we make do with Sunday morning.



LevelTx -> RE: Indoctrination (11/12/2012 6:48:46 PM)

Most kids ignore the shit out of both science and religion tho.



tweakabelle -> RE: Indoctrination (11/12/2012 6:59:39 PM)

At the Catholic schools I survived, we were forced to sit through 45 mins of religious 'education' every day of every year all the way through my primary and intermediate schooling. The first non-sectarian institution I encountered was university.

Church beliefs were taught dogmatically - we weren't encouraged to question or analyse them, only take them on board. At one point I was threatened with expulsion for daring to suggest that women ought to be in charge of their own fertility, and that abortion should be left to the woman concerned to choose.

IOW they tried to brainwash me and every other student who passed through the Catholic education system. Their stated reason for this was they were trying to impart the 'Truth' to me. But they obviously felt that their "Truth' couldn't withstand any questioning or independent scrutiny.

While I am able to state that their attempts at brainwashing me failed miserably, I do have a concern for others currently suffering the same brainwashing. I would prefer an education system that was either completely non-sectarian, or taught all major religions and philosophies without promoting any individual one.

Either way, it is imperative that students be taught the critical thinking skills necessary to analyse and evaluate any ideology so that students can make their own evaluations and decisions. It is equally important that students are encouraged to freely question and analyse all belief systems.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Indoctrination (11/12/2012 7:04:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LevelTx

Most kids ignore the shit out of both science and religion tho.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html

Seeing as 46% of the population believes in Creationism, I'd say you're half right.



LevelTx -> RE: Indoctrination (11/12/2012 7:17:44 PM)

Right. But I believe in God AND evolution, so there's hope for us all.

Or at least half of us lol.



Owner59 -> RE: Indoctrination (11/12/2012 8:20:03 PM)

IMHO....TV is the biggest influence......as well....the thousands of hours of adverts that comes with TV......

Parents don`t stand much of a chance.



Fellow -> RE: Indoctrination (11/12/2012 9:46:41 PM)

I do not see a problem. Both are important but religion is more important, and it gets more attention. Religion gives a child cosmic dimension while science adds to it practical aspect for everyday life on Earth.



thompsonx -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 5:31:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Church is Sun morning for 2 hours, Sun evening 2 hours and Wed evening for one hour.

That may vary by denomination or congregation. At St. Margaret's, we make do with Sunday morning.


In the catholic school I went to we had an hour of "catachism"(Rote memorization of the tennents of catholicism)every day grade 1-8, aways first period. Grade 4-8 they added an hour a day of "bible history" always first period after lunch. In high school (grde 9-12) back to one hour a day of "bible history"...but every thing (grade 1-grade 12) from geography to algebra had a catholic religious slant to it. Then of course there was the obligatory mass every morning (30 minutes) and sunday (1 hour)



thompsonx -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 5:33:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LevelTx

Most kids ignore the shit out of both science and religion tho.



Where do all the jesus phreaks come from then?



thompsonx -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 5:41:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

I do not see a problem. Both are important but religion is more important, and it gets more attention. Religion gives a child cosmic dimension.


Assumes facts not in evidence.



Paladinagain -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 6:20:22 AM)

Actually science and astronomy point to intelligent design with overwhelming evidence.
There are smaller medical research centers that are making MAJOR breakthroughs by approaching the human body with an “engineering” mindset.
Evolution is a long since proven erroneous theory. It’s an impossibility, but yet it is thrust down our children’s throats with our taxpayer dollars. The media insists that it be presented as” fact" on TV on a regular basis. The few true scientists that concur with the facts are ostracized because the scientific community is so political. Throw in all the religious scammers and it’s no wonder that there is no confidence in either.
Jesus said that “there would be few that find it”. I don’t know what percentage that would be but I do know that “few” is “few”.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 6:35:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladinagain

I don’t know what percentage that would be but I do know that “few” is “few”.


I'm certain you concider yourself to be one of them [8|]



fucktoyprincess -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 7:39:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

I do not see a problem. Both are important but religion is more important, and it gets more attention. Religion gives a child cosmic dimension while science adds to it practical aspect for everyday life on Earth.


I disagree that religion is more important than science. Moral fabric is important, but religion is not the only path to morality.

And if a parent had to choose between life-saving medicine and praying to god to save their sick child, most parents (except those in religious sects who do not believe in medical intervention) would choose the medicine. Without a doubt. If they really felt religion was more important, they would just pray, and leave it up to god. But how many people actually do that when faced with that kind of choice? When the rubber meets the road, people always choose science.

Those of you who disagree, please stop using the medical system in its entirety. Because medicine is based on science. Science that has nothing to do with god. Stop getting vaccines, taking antibiotics, pain medication, hypertension medication, heart disease medication, cholesterol medication, insulin. Stop receiving surgical procedures of any sort.

Give it up to god if god and religion are so powerful. Then trust god's decision to make you ill and make you die, even prematurely. Why in the final analysis do you trust science more?



mnottertail -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 7:44:06 AM)

quote:


Actually science and astronomy point to intelligent design with overwhelming evidence.


Where does this overwhelming evidence exist?  Cuz having read overwhelming evidence to the contrary for my entire life, I have not run across that little corner of the universe.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 7:49:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I waited until after the elections for this. It seems that most of my RW friends and acquaintances are always ranting about the schools "Indoctrinating" our children away from the one twue way.


i wonder why god didn't hand them the election? And of course they are still scratching their heads over the math of the election results. And Obama's win is partially credited to an amazing group of academics and psychologists (i.e., scientists) who gave the Obama campaign lots of advice on how to appeal to voters.

Let the conservatives continue to rely on god. Let's see how far their children get with no math and science education in a future that is increasingly being shaped by technology. How competitive do they think their children will be, equipped with only a religious education? Maybe we should just let right wingers opt out of math and science classes entirely. In fact, nothing would make me happier than right wingers shooting themselves in the foot with this issue. Because it is more like shooting oneself in the head.

And then when the world order has shifted and Jewish intellectuals, Chinese scientists, Indian computer scientists, non-religious European psychologists, etc. all make more money, and the poor white Christian fundamentalists need financial assistance, we'll see how the issues of "personal responsibility", "fiscal conservatism", and "anti-intellectualism" pan out. Bring it on, I say......



vincentML -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 8:05:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Paladinagain

Actually science and astronomy point to intelligent design with overwhelming evidence.
There are smaller medical research centers that are making MAJOR breakthroughs by approaching the human body with an “engineering” mindset.
Evolution is a long since proven erroneous theory. It’s an impossibility, but yet it is thrust down our children’s throats with our taxpayer dollars. The media insists that it be presented as” fact" on TV on a regular basis. The few true scientists that concur with the facts are ostracized because the scientific community is so political. Throw in all the religious scammers and it’s no wonder that there is no confidence in either.
Jesus said that “there would be few that find it”. I don’t know what percentage that would be but I do know that “few” is “few”.


A Quantum load of bullshit [:-]



Marc2b -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 8:17:02 AM)

I just changed my sig line to one of my favorite quotes because of this thread.

There is no reasoning with ideologues and Christian Fundamentalists are ideologues. Creationism is pseudo scientific claptrap. Intelligent Design is nothing more that Creationism under a new name (Or as my Grandfather would say, "if you take a piece of shit and pour perfume on it and wrap it in a pretty pink bow... its still a piece of shit."). Already in this thread we have seen that some people blithely dismiss over a hundred and fifty years of accumulated research and evidence simply because they cannot accept reality. They cannot accept the fact that their god, Yahweh the god of the Bible, does not exist (and thank whatever real gods there may be for that because Yahweh is one narcissistic, sadistic, bastard).

The Creationists are not going to go away anytime soon so it falls to the rest of us to remain ever vigilant. Every attempt by these bullies to cram their bullshit down our throats under the guise of "science" and "balance," etc, must be met head on with facts and, when necessary, with law suits. They have every right to believe whatever nonsense they want to but they have no right to impose their religion on the rest of us. Science deals with reality, not fantasy, and every time these theocratic tyrants try to blur the line between the two, we must stand together and in a single loud voice shout, "NO!"

Kitzmiller vs. Dover put the kibosh on Intelligent Design for now but they will be back. Their god tells them to, after all.

I highly recommend the book "Monkey Girl," by Edward Humes. It is a well researched account of the Kitzmiller case that not only exposes the fatal flaws of Creationism/ID but also exposes the dishonesty, the total lack of integrity, and the down right nastiness of those who see themselves as God's servants.






DaddySatyr -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 8:22:05 AM)

I'm sorry, Hill but I have to dispute your numbers.

While Baptists certainly go to church as often as you claim, I can tell you that for traditional Catholics, it's more like 1.5 hours per week (with a few other "Holy Days of Obligation") and the Vatican tries to keep mass to under an hour (especially during football season).

I can also tell you that Lutherans run about an hour a week as well as Universal Unitarians.

Also, I've gone to church, a lot in my life and I can tell you that hardly every minute of every service is devoted to Creationism. In church, itself, I have hardly ever heard sermons on Creationism.

In the Catholic and Lutheran masses, you'll find that the sermon is almost always based upon a gospel reading. While Creationism is the very first part of Genesis, you won't find it mentioned by any of the "Big Four" that Constantine chose to keep.

Now, if you wish to speak about parochial schools , that's a discussion we can have about indoctrination. I would caution you, though, the Catholic school that I went to and the one at which I taught (very briefly) both taught that it was okay to believe in evolution as long as part of that belief was that God caused evolution to happen.

Not to hijack but on what seems to have become a bit of a broader subject; I have always believed that God caused evolution to happen because to deny evolution is a pretty stupid thing to do, considering the mounds of evidence in favor of such a thing.

Even more to my beliefs, though, is the gut-wrenching feeling that science will, one day, prove the existence of God. Yes, I believe that. I don't believe that the two are diametrically opposed. I believe in the old adage that "The Lord works in mysterious ways, His wonderous works to perform" and I believe that He authored science so that one day, the doubting Thomases of the world would have iron-clad proof that there is some "Great Spirit" (or whatever the new politically correct bullshit term will be) that has been watching over us from the very beginning.

Having said all of that, I find it ironic that most PPLs want people to believe that people of faith wish their children to be ignorant of what's going on in the world around them. Quite the contrary, I raised my children to question any authority that didn't square up with what they felt in their gut.

I know far too many people of faith that are not mind-numbed robots (as the left would like people to believe) and we've seen negative evidence of such on these boards. I remember a thread where someone was "slamming Catholics" (because that's one of the favorite sports, around here) for using birth control in amazingly large numbers. It seems that some Catholics didn't get the memo or they have chosen to find their balance between what their church teaches and what life teaches.

I don't think you can pigeon hole any group of people, no matter how you choose to try to group them, into any one, neat, little, category. Imagine how dull the world would be, if we could.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



mnottertail -> RE: Indoctrination (11/13/2012 8:27:23 AM)

I do not believe that science will prove the existence of 'god' at least not as depicted in any 'religious' context.

We (by their reasoning) cannot exploit god, god exploits us.  And therefore there is no way to find evidence of god. 



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