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Arms restrained above the head - 12/3/2012 1:32:27 PM   
SpyUnderCover


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I found this brief discussion but wanted to get more input. Basically, how long is it generally safe to have the arms restrained above the head? This is assuming that the person's feet are flat on the floor and the restraints themselves are not cutting off circulation. Only a couple of people responded in the old thread. They said just look for skin changing color, getting cold, tingling or going numb. Any more specifics? Any recommended time limit -- 15 minutes? Half an hour? An hour? What has your experience been?

Thanks.

Spy
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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/3/2012 2:00:45 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


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From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		That was a nice discussion to read from the archives, thanks for bringing this subject back to life.

I've had bo up on the cross or in restraints attached to eye bolts in the hallway for an hour to an hour and a half at a time, easily.

We attach a short dog choke chain (opened up) to the eye bolts and have his restraints connect to these, so that he has a choice to grab onto the chain, brace his hand against the wall, or just let his arms hang from them. I think this is why we have never had problems come up with his circulation, because the pressure varies. (The man is pushing sixty, has health problems and has had a heart attack in his somewhat distant past.)

I started him off with shorter times, changing where I put him so that his shoulders wouldn't get tight. His muscles reacted like he had been doing some exercise, having to build up to it and being a little sore afterward. When I take him down I give support to his arm while undoing the restraints, and then I lower his arm slowly while rubbing the shoulder if I feel he needs it. Watching his face tells me all I need to know. The initial stiffness doesn't last long, but I am careful because I don't want something to get pulled...an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

In one of the padded swings, I often chain his arms up above his head. He's sitting in it crossed legged and later when he is deeply subspacing and I want him wrapped in a blanket, head in my lap and on the couch, I still take him out of his position very carefully and have my hands on him to prevent falls, or his coming down on an ankle the wrong way.

They can be kinda wonky when they've been in one position for a long time, but other than that, there have been no other "problems".

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/3/2012 2:33:17 PM   
kiwisub12


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Status: offline 		If they have room to move their shoulders - as in not strung up tightly - they will be able to take it longer. When i'm up, if i can move my shoulders a bit, i can take it longer than when i am strung tightly. I have adhesive capsulitis in one shoulder, so i can't go up as far or stay as long. If i do, my shoulder gets painful for days after it.

As far as time goes, i would think it would vary according to the age, health, physical condition, sex and emotional condition of your *coughvictimcough*.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/3/2012 6:35:10 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		It depends if they're supporting themselves by their legs or if their legs are wobbly and they're pulling on the restraints. I have a tendency to relax into restraints at which point my weight and gravity causes the restraints to cut in. So for me, maybe 10 -20 minutes.

If I'm not into it, then the pulling on them isn't going to happen but at that point I can't handle anything anyway so it's a moot point.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/4/2012 9:04:53 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		I certainly wouldn't recommend ever suspending someone with their arms directly over their head because you can kill them in minutes from asphyxiation.
Its perfectly safe to have the arms over the head when the feet or the buttocks are firmly propped on something but be wary of the submissive collapsing on the wrist cuffs. Its critical that the sub should be raised and cut loose if this happens. Personally I would never tie the arms above the head for more than 20 minutes and even that long makes me get a little edgy. The arms when put in this position will quickly go numb because the heart isn't strong enough to pump blood that far up for very long. ultimately your extremities, in this case your arms will start to lack circulation and oxygenation.
Putting the arms into a crucifix position is far safer for longer periods of time (though never leave them alone in such a position).

On a side note; As a climber I tend to have my hands over my head quite a lot! I know that I can't physically keep my arms above my head for more than a few minutes before I have to rest them. Its not about holding onto something above me with brute strength, its about the capillaries in my arms not being able to fill with blood because of the position I have them in.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/4/2012 12:42:13 PM   
SpyUnderCover


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Status: offline 		This is all good information. Thanks everyone for your comments.

Spy

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/4/2012 1:53:28 PM   
kiwisub12


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Status: offline 		agreed - my arms and hands start going numb very quickly in this position.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/6/2012 4:25:08 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


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From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Spy, it's all in the color of the hands and in the nail beds. If bo's knees bend and he's hanging too much weight by his arms, the color of his hands darkens noticeably and...since I'm paranoid about these things, either he rests more weight on his legs or down he comes.

While I have someone in restraints, even if they are strapped to a table, I check their nail beds from time to time by pushing down on the middle of the nail for a moment, till they blanch, then releasing. If color comes back immediately then I'm okay to leave him up longer.

I haven't ever put anyone up with arms directly over their head; I prefer spread eagled or with legs comfortably apart. Since I've had a lot of wrist problems over the years myself (carpal tunnel, gangli-something-or-other cysts, and my wrists tend to pop out of whack from time to time and it HURTS for like half an hour or until I can pull it while wriggling it the right way, lol). Anyway, bo has good wrists and I don't want to mess them up, nor allow him to mess them up while trying to please me.

Btw, in one of my bible study books, it was mentioned that when Romans executed people by putting them up on a cross that...it wasn't the elements nor dehydration that killed them, but smothering. Something about the arms being fastened up for a long period of time would make the muscles in the chest weaker and breathing would get more and more shallow until they suffocated. It might have been one of my Zondervan bibles.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 12/6/2012 8:51:37 PM   
littleone14


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Status: offline 		I have had shoulder injuries, so having my arms above my head for any length of time, even if my feet are on the floor, is nearly impossible. Someone with much stronger shoulders wouldn't have as difficult of a time as I do. So I think it really varies......

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/2/2013 5:09:13 PM   
StrictlyADomina


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Status: offline 		If they are in good shape and have no circulation or heart issues an hour would be fine for a standing scene with arms over their head. I like to use a wide leather cuff to displace the weight if they want to relax their arm and let the cuff support the weight of the arm. If they enjoy struggling a wide cuff can be nice to use for the same reason. I check the fingers and make sure they are warm a few times during the scene to make sure they are getting good circulation. (I do the same during rope bondage.) I had one boy get a little light headed after I took his arms down. I ordered him to kneel. I reasoned if he passed out he would be closer to the ground. Now when I do this with him I'll take one arm down at a time during the course of the scene and then reattach the clip to the spreader bar so his arms get a break. I also make sure I use a padded mat under where he stands. While I have only had this issue come up one time and not since with this boy, it just pays to take precautions.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/3/2013 8:58:49 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		Its okay saying an hour should be fine but every single person is different and lets remember that not everyone knows how to do correct ties or how tight the ropes, cuffs should be.
A 'Capillary Refill test' should be done at least every five minutes and the person should never be left alone not even for a minute.
The biggest faint scenarios with bondage happens to people who have their hands tied over their head. I have had someone faint on me in this position and its bloody frightening. Fortunately I wasn't alone and someone else held him up whilst I cut through the ropes.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/3/2013 8:27:46 PM   
Ultimatetragedy


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Status: offline 		I certainly wouldn't recommend ever suspending someone with their arms directly over their head because you can kill them in minutes from asphyxiation.

This is utter nonsense---a person can not become asphyxiation by having their body suspended by their arms. Ever played on the monkey bars as a child?? I would love to see some medical literature to back this up!

The arms when put in this position will quickly go numb because the heart isn't strong enough to pump blood that far up for very long.

Again this is not true. A healthy heart can produce sufficient ionotropic force to overcome gravity very easily. If a persons Systolic Blood pressure is 100mm Hg, there is a very small pressure gradient between the aortic root and the tip of the fingers (assuming they are held straight up). Hold one arm above your head and see if you can still find your pulse!! The reason the arm would experience paresthesias (numbness, tingling etc) has very little to do with blood not reaching the finger tips. When the arm is extended above the head, the gleno-humeral joint can stretch the brachial plexus---this is what causes the sensation you described earlier--NOT the heart being unable to create sufficient pressure to perfuse the extremities!!!

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/4/2013 3:31:58 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ultimatetragedy

I certainly wouldn't recommend ever suspending someone with their arms directly over their head because you can kill them in minutes from asphyxiation.

This is utter nonsense---a person can not become asphyxiation by having their body suspended by their arms. Ever played on the monkey bars as a child?? I would love to see some medical literature to back this up!

The arms when put in this position will quickly go numb because the heart isn't strong enough to pump blood that far up for very long.

Again this is not true. A healthy heart can produce sufficient ionotropic force to overcome gravity very easily. If a persons Systolic Blood pressure is 100mm Hg, there is a very small pressure gradient between the aortic root and the tip of the fingers (assuming they are held straight up). Hold one arm above your head and see if you can still find your pulse!! The reason the arm would experience paresthesias (numbness, tingling etc) has very little to do with blood not reaching the finger tips. When the arm is extended above the head, the gleno-humeral joint can stretch the brachial plexus---this is what causes the sensation you described earlier--NOT the heart being unable to create sufficient pressure to perfuse the extremities!!!


You can't compare this to holding your hands above your head and playing on monkey bars. I was a gymnast and I am a rock climber and for a woman I have incredibly strong arms. That strength and my fitness still doesn't allow me to hang on to an overhang jug of rock with my body weight hanging under me for very long at all. I have to keep moving and I have to have my feet on something. My elbows need to be slightly bent if I am not to become quickly out of breath and exhausted but thats only possible for more than a minute if my feet are on something. All climber understand the tourniquet affect in your arms (when their hands let go involuntarily) We call it getting pumped because the arms suddenly don't work.
This has nothing to do with 'Positional asphyxiation' which what I was talking about.

You need to google search this and download this but its easy enough to find and there is an abundance of stuff on the web about positional asphyxiation. People should look up hog ties and positional asphyxiation too.
Harrowing Laboratory
Experiments (2)
Dr.Hermann Mödder was a Cologne radiologist who during the immediate post-World War II
period conducted experiments on the effects of suspending volunteer medical
students by their wrists. The mode adopted was for them to be fastened so that their arms
were outstretched in the form of a “V”. Mödder recorded measurements of respiratory and
cardiovascular function before and during suspension. By the sixth minute the vital capacity
had fallen from 5.2 L to 1.5 L., and the chest was fixed in a maximal position of inspiration,
with only diaphragmatic respiratory movements remaining. The pulse rate quickly rose from
72 to 140 per minute, and by the sixth minute the blood pressure had fallen from 120 to 70.
The ECG showed in leads 11 and 111 a marked fall of the ST-segment and an almost
complete flattening of the T-waves. On x-ray the diameter of the heart was reduced by 3 cm.
It was also noted that the skin was pallid, cold and damp.
According to Mödder : “What will set in after the end of the sixth minute can be foreseen by
the physician: unconsciousness, intense pallor, sweating. In short: collapse due to insufficient
blood supply to the heart and brain. We can see that – apart from the brain with its vital
respiratory and circulatory centres – the heart obtains too little blood and oxygen, as is
indicated by the changes in the ECG, the reduction of heart volume, and the rapid decline of
the heart’s performance.”
(H. Mödder 1949,pp.56-57,59)

and this http://www.charlydmiller.com/RA/crucify.html
The weight of the body, pulling down on the outstretched arms and shoulders, would tend to fix the intercostal muscles in the position of inhalation. The only way the man could exhale was to lift with his arms and push with his legs to hold himself up for a few seconds to allow the air to escape from his lungs. To avoid suffocation the man was forced to cause his own excruciating pain by putting more pressure on the medial nerves

< Message edited by MariaB -- 1/4/2013 3:36:11 AM >

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/4/2013 7:07:06 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
The arms when put in this position will quickly go numb because the heart isn't strong enough to pump blood that far up for very long. ultimately your extremities, in this case your arms will start to lack circulation and oxygenation.


Aha! That might explain why I can't paint above my head for very long. I've always wondered why, given that I spend so much time in the gym, my arm muscles 'are not strong enough' to do this.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/4/2013 9:40:53 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
The arms when put in this position will quickly go numb because the heart isn't strong enough to pump blood that far up for very long. ultimately your extremities, in this case your arms will start to lack circulation and oxygenation.


Aha! That might explain why I can't paint above my head for very long. I've always wondered why, given that I spend so much time in the gym, my arm muscles 'are not strong enough' to do this.


If you paint ceilings on a regular basis then you find a technique that works. Climbing and gymnastics is exactly the same. Strength has its place but without technique your basically buggered.
Next time you go to the gym try hanging from a parallel bar with the arms straight. Let go with one arm and shake it out before changing arms and doing it with the other. This is what we have to do as climbers when doing a tricky overhang. I'll bet you that you can hang on longer using this technique than if you just remain still and try and hang on with both arms.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/4/2013 4:28:21 PM   
Ultimatetragedy


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Status: offline 		Exhalation is a completely passive process!! it doesnt require muscles (it is dependent on the elastic recoil of the chest wall and the relaxation of the inspiratory muscles) patients with COPD do use muscles to expire but their mechanics have been altered by their disease. The diaphragm, after contracting will relax, and thus cause exhalation to occur. Consider this, during a general anesthetic, most patients are paralyzed. A positive pressure breath is given by a mechanical ventilator; exhalation occurs COMPLETELY by recoil of the chest wall. Even in patients with severe COPD (and other restrictive & obstructive disease) they are able to exhale without the assistance of muscles. Of course the I:E ratio is often altered to prevent air trapping. I am certain you remember all of the details of respiratory physiology when you were in graduate/medical school.

We (physicians) have learned a tremendous amount of information to since the immediate post WWII period. If you truly think those studies are accurate, present some data from a leading medical journal--and together we can help clarify the information for all the CM readers.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/4/2013 7:00:00 PM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		But inhalation isn't a passive process. During inhalation the diaphragm contracts (it pulls down) and the ribcage pulls itself up and out. During exhalation the diaphragm relaxes and returns to its original position but this isn't possible if ones weight is suspended by the wrists. During wrist only suspension exhalation becomes an active process and not a passive one.
According to the medical report in The Journal of the American Medical Association, the major effect of being suspended by the arms alone will interference with NORMAL RESPIRATION or breathing:
The weight of the body, pulling down on the OUTSTRETCHED ARMS AND SHOULDERS, would tend to fix the intercostal muscles in an inhalation state and thereby HINDER PASSIVE EXHALATION. Accordingly, exhalation was primarily diaphragmatic, and breathing was shallow. It is likely that THIS FORM OF RESPIRATION WOULD NOT SUFFICE and that hypercarbia would soon result. The onset of muscle cramps or tetanic contractions, due to fatigue and hypercarbia, WOULD HINDER RESPIRATION EVEN FURTHER.

Its also worth pointing out that many middle aged smokers with undiagnosed COPD are on the scene and would readily and happily allow a dominant to suspend them by the wrists.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/5/2013 11:12:42 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia



Btw, in one of my bible study books, it was mentioned that when Romans executed people by putting them up on a cross that...it wasn't the elements nor dehydration that killed them, but smothering. Something about the arms being fastened up for a long period of time would make the muscles in the chest weaker and breathing would get more and more shallow until they suffocated. It might have been one of my Zondervan bibles.


The diaphragm is in constant use when the arms are totally stretched out. Eventually it gets too tired to be used for respiration.

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RE: Arms restrained above the head - 1/6/2013 5:58:57 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ultimatetragedy

We (physicians) have learned a tremendous amount of information to since the immediate post WWII period. If you truly think those studies are accurate, present some data from a leading medical journal--and together we can help clarify the information for all the CM readers.


You claim to be a physician and you claim what I have said is utter nonsense. You now need to clarify that 'nonsense' statement with some medical backup of your own or you need to admit that its not something you have seriously looked into until now.
You at least owe us that.

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