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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 9:57:57 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Not even the shooter's mum?


That nutcase sure was not hiding...Moon this type of comparison is ridiculous and typical of vince, Why does he not mention Muslims killing Muslim children in Syria as well for instance.. At least we try not to kill innocents they do it on purpose.

I feel for all the children accidentally killed in our wars but I blame their fathers…and brothers for their death just as much as our bombs…it should be a shared shame not ours alone.

Butch


How does the US dropping bombs on them and knowing there are civilians & children there who are going to be killed not doing that on purpose?

Bush Jr invaded Iraq with lies, you cant blame their fathers & brothers for those acts.. not to mention that thru history your govt has been screwing around in ways that created that hate of America in the first place.. put the blame where it belongs, on your President(s) & fellow politicians in cahoots with Big Oil & Big War profiteers.. all the Big Business that wanted to make Big Bucks setting up shop in those conquered countries.. what are a few hundred civilian deaths over there compared to billions of dollars for US business & its subsidiaries? Do you not also see the damage it does to your country? pointless lost lives of soldiers with too many of the ones that make it thru horribly damaged, not to mention that US taxpayers are footing the bill also, that money should be used to help reduce the extreme poverty in the US instead of going into the pockets of greedy Big Business.. You all pay too high a price for what your govt does.. jmo..

Corporations Profit from Permanent War
Our country has 5 percent of the world's population but accounts for more than 40% of the military spending for the whole world.
War is Big Business
War is very big business. People know that private companies are doing much more in war. In January 2010, the Congressional Research Service reported that there are at least 55,000 private armed security contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan, and maybe many more - as many as 70,000 in Afghanistan alone.

But much bigger money is available to defense contractors. In 2008 alone, the top ten defense contractors received nearly $150 billion in federal contracts. These corporations spent millions to lobby for billions more in federal funds and hired ex-military leaders and ex-officials to help them profit off war.

For example, look at the top three defense contractors, Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Northrop Grumman. They demonstrate why perpetual war is profitable and part of the reason it continues.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/corporations-profit-from_b_586896.html
========
A discreet way of doing business with Iraq
FT.com site; Nov 3, 2000
BY CAROLA HOYOS, UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT

Millions of dollars of US oil business with Iraq are being channelled discreetly through European and other companies, in a practice that has highlighted the double standards now dominating relations between Baghdad and Washington after a decade of crippling sanctions.

Though legal, leading US oil service companies such as Halliburton, Baker Hughes, Schlumberger, Flowserve, Fisher-Rosemount and others, have used subsidiaries and joint venture companies for this lucrative business, so as to avoid straining relations with Washington and jeopardising their ties with President Saddam Hussein's government in Baghdad.

By submitting their contracts to the UN via mainly French subsidiaries, many of which do little more than lend their name to the transaction, the companies are treated as European, rather than US or Japanese, applicants.

In 1998 the UN passed a resolution allowing Iraq, the world's sixth largest oil producer, to buy spare parts for its dilapidated oil industry.

Since then, only two of the 3,058 contracts for oil industry parts that have been submitted to the UN have officially come from US companies. But the facts behind these figures tell a very different story.

US companies have in fact submitted contracts worth at least $100m to the UN for approval to supply Iraq with oil industry spare parts, through their foreign subsidiaries. Some informed estimates put that value as high as $170m.

They have used, or allowed, associated companies, mainly in France, but also in Belgium, Germany, India, Switzerland, Bahrain, Egypt and the Netherlands, to put the contracts through.

"It is a wonderful example of how ludicrous sanctions have become," says Raad Alkadiri, analyst at the Petroleum Finance Company, a Washington-based consulting firm.

"On the one hand you have the Americans, who do not want to be seen trading with Iraq, despite the fact that it is above board and legitimate, because that would contradict their image of being tough towards Iraq. On the other hand you have the Iraqis, who on the technocratic level would like to buy the best stuff on the market - in many cases that comes from the US - but politically have to be able to say they are refusing to deal with US companies," he said.

Halliburton, the largest US oil services company, is among a significant number of US companies that have sold oil industry equipment to Iraq since the UN relaxed sanctions two years ago.

From 1995 until August this year Halliburton's chief executive officer was Dick Cheney, US secretary of defence during the Gulf war and now Republican vice-presidential running mate of George W.Bush.

From September 1998 until it sold its stake last February, Halliburton owned 51 per cent of Dresser-Rand. It also owned 49 per cent of Ingersoll-Dresser Pump, until its sale in December 1999. During the time of the joint ventures, Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll-Dresser Pump submitted more than $23.8m worth of contracts for the sale of oil industry parts and equipment to Iraq. Their combined total amounted to more than any other US company; the vast majority was approved by the sanctions committee.

Mr Cheney is not the only Washington heavyweight to have been affiliated with a company trading with Iraq. John Deutch, a former director of the Central Intelligence Agency, is a member of the board of Schlumberger, the second largest US oil services company.

Schlumberger has submitted at least three contracts for well-logging equipment and geological software via a French subsidiary, Services Petroliers Schlumberger, and through Schlumberger Gulf Services of Bahrain.

Some of the companies, such as General Electric and Dresser-Rand, say that not only political considerations shape their decision to do business through their European offices.

"It is customary for GE to do its business for the Middle East out of its European offices," says Louise Binns, a GE spokeswoman, who acknowledged that GE does business with Iraq. Other companies the FT contacted admitted doing business with Iraq, either directly or through their subsidiaries.

US companies that use foreign associates can also reduce the risk of their contracts being blocked by France and Russia in retaliation for blocks by the US.

The US is behind nearly all the $289m of contracts delayed by the sanctions committee, which has received $1.7bn of contracts. These delays were ostensibly intended to prevent transfer to Iraq of dual-use technology that could be adapted for military purposes.

"Washington doesn't want to enable the Iraqi economy to recover, therefore it keeps the infrastructure very weak," a UN diplomat said.

However, Iraq is the US's second biggest Middle Eastern oil supplier after Saudi Arabia, making Washington uneasily dependent on Iraq's steady oil flow. Using this influence as an oil provider, as well as the ties it has developed with US business, Iraq has tried to acquire lobbying power in the US.

Despite the US business ties to Iraq, however, fear of official US disapproval of contacts with Baghdad has also prompted one US ally - Japan - to do its trade through third parties.

Tomen, the Japanese company supplying industrial transport equipment to Iraq, submits its contracts through its French subsidiary, Tomen France.

US companies have themselves been among those which have suffered from the US practice of blocking contracts. But they have an edge when it comes to arguing for the approval of their contracts, diplomats say.

By temporarily dropping their guise as European companies, they have managed to reverse the blocks by going directly to US officials, rather than having their case argued by the European mission on behalf of their subsidiary.

At least two US companies have recently managed to reverse Washington's objections over their contracts. In an exchange of letters between company officials and one UN mission, seen by the FT, it became clear the US companies had resolved its case directly with Washington. Few non-US companies have been able to exercise similar influence.


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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 11:47:26 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Butch, you buy the story that terrorists are hiding amonst the children


You are right...all the US military personnel are lying… pure bullshit propaganda…so is my son in law...so are the middle eastern reporters…Hell my own eyes must be lying when I see video of rockets being shot off among civilian areas. Everyone is lying except for the poor Palestinian freedom fighters.

Butch

Well really! Gaza is a ghetto prison imposed by Israel. From where else can the prisoners fire their rockets?

The saliant point in your argument is the belief that Arabs, et. al. have less regard for the lives of their own children than we do in the 'civilized' West. This is just a variant of dehumanizing a population to make it easier to kill them. A form of white man superiority. Meanwhile, our application of terror is obscured by the mythology of technological clean-kills. So, we drop 500 pound bombs on villages without guilt.

Butch, Let me ask you again, since you failed to respond to my question: When did the tribes in Waziristan attack or do any harm to the United States?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/20/2012 12:21:03 PM >

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 12:00:29 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

what are a few hundred civilian deaths over there compared to billions of dollars for US business & its subsidiaries? Do you not also see the damage it does to your country? pointless lost lives of soldiers with too many of the ones that make it thru horribly damaged,

Which brings us to the case of Sgt Robert Bales who is accused of murdering 16 Afghanis, 9 of whom were children. Notable that Bales was on his fourth tour of duty. Notable also that the Military will be seeking the death penalty for Bales.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/army-will-seek-death-penalty-for-washington-soldier-charged-in-massacre-of-16-afghan-villagers/2012/12/19/22278a84-4a06-11e2-8af9-9b50cb4605a7_story.html

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 12:19:44 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

How does the US dropping bombs on them and knowing there are civilians & children there who are going to be killed not doing that on purpose


Because we don't...not if we know for sure ...tragic accidents happen...as with the OB raid... it would have been easier to just blow their butts away. I believe, as I did when in the Corps, that our armed forces do their best to limit civilian casualties when possible.

If we wanted to we could have resorted to the same kind of indiscriminate bombing campaigns as in WWII and Vietnam for that matter it would be more effective and cost fewer US lives…but we care.

Of course there is always the exception...after all… our soldiers are given unprecedented control of their actions in combat. There will always be the insane haters that don't get weeded out but they are just that...exceptions.

There are no armed forces in the world engaged in any war at any time, present or past, that prioritizes limiting civilian casualties like today’s US military.

Butch

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 12:26:51 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

If we wanted to we could have resorted to the same kind of indiscriminate bombing campaigns as in WWII and Vietnam for that matter it would be more effective and cost fewer US lives…but we care.

Ohhhh. . . .we care. Humanitarian bombing then

Again, the tribes of Waziristan never did any harm to the United States. Why are we bombing them?

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 12:35:30 PM   
kdsub


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Ask the Germans and Japanese if they would rather have a few drones firing rockets or the 8th Air force and their B-17's...or the fire bombing with B-29's

Believe me if we wanted we could end this war in weeks with that type of bombing... and we are capable of doing it.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 1:41:54 PM   
dcnovice


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FR

Two thoughts on points the UK writers seem to have overlooked about how people respond to tragedy:

(a) The Sandy Hook massacre happened here. In a quiet, prosperous Connecticut town not in a distant region oft-associated, perhaps unfairly, with strife. The Newtown deaths evoke a visceral "That could have been my kid" response. I saw that personally with my brother, who lives in the next town over and whose neighbors will be going to funerals this Christmas. Does that mean that losing children to drones is any less awful? Of course not. But, like it or not, folks react differently to things that hit home.

(b) Given time and space, the Sandy Hook shootings fused into a single horror--fast and furious. In just minutes (was it seconds?), 26 people lay dead, two dozen families shattered forever. That kind of tragic drama arrests the attention in a way that single deaths, even if they add up to a larger total, do not. Perhaps our minds shouldn't work that way, but my experience has been that they do.

Two thoughts I should probably keep to myself:

(a) I'm not a great fan of what I call competitive misery. Whenever I detect, as I did with the UK writers, an undercurrent of "But [insert tragedy here] is even worse than your sorrow," I tend to sigh and move on. For me at least, compassion is not a zero-sum game.

(b) It's clear that both UK authors have long-standing (and perhaps warranted) beefs with U.S. foreign policy. That's their right, of course. But their perfunctory discussion of Newtown and their utter lack of empathy for Americans stunned and sorrowed by the massacre leave me asking a hard question: Are these guys using the corpses of slain American kids as props to score geopolitical points? Sad to say, my answer is, "It sure seems that way."


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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 2:36:41 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

How does the US dropping bombs on them and knowing there are civilians & children there who are going to be killed not doing that on purpose


Because we don't...not if we know for sure ...tragic accidents happen...as with the OB raid... it would have been easier to just blow their butts away. I believe, as I did when in the Corps, that our armed forces do their best to limit civilian casualties when possible.

If we wanted to we could have resorted to the same kind of indiscriminate bombing campaigns as in WWII and Vietnam for that matter it would be more effective and cost fewer US lives…but we care.

Of course there is always the exception...after all… our soldiers are given unprecedented control of their actions in combat. There will always be the insane haters that don't get weeded out but they are just that...exceptions.

There are no armed forces in the world engaged in any war at any time, present or past, that prioritizes limiting civilian casualties like today’s US military.

Butch

My point was, they know very well they will kill civilians and children, its just glossed over as the unevitable casualties of war cuz its more palatible that way.. except the locals there dont see it that way, they are being attacked and so more hate against the US is created.. but the US shouldnt be in Iraq or Libya or many of those countries in the first place.. and my point was that Big War has an interest in keeping these costly wars & hate going..

of course those are just my opinions, which wont change anything, only Americans themselves can change what America does.. but perhaps what will eventually limit your govt the most will be its debt.. the money has to come from somewhere after all..

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 2:41:54 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Two thoughts I should probably keep to myself:

(a) I'm not a great fan of what I call competitive misery. Whenever I detect, as I did with the UK writers, an undercurrent of "But [insert tragedy here] is even worse than your sorrow," I tend to sigh and move on. For me at least, compassion is not a zero-sum game.


Agreed.

quote:

(b) It's clear that both UK authors have long-standing (and perhaps warranted) beefs with U.S. foreign policy. That's their right, of course. But their perfunctory discussion of Newtown and their utter lack of empathy for Americans stunned and sorrowed by the massacre leave me asking a hard question: Are these guys using the corpses of slain American kids as props to score geopolitical points? Sad to say, my answer is, "It sure seems that way."


Agreed.


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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 2:45:54 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


(a) I'm not a great fan of what I call competitive misery. Whenever I detect, as I did with the UK writers, an undercurrent of "But [insert tragedy here] is even worse than your sorrow," I tend to sigh and move on. For me at least, compassion is not a zero-sum game.

(b) It's clear that both UK authors have long-standing (and perhaps warranted) beefs with U.S. foreign policy. That's their right, of course. But their perfunctory discussion of Newtown and their utter lack of empathy for Americans stunned and sorrowed by the massacre leave me asking a hard question: Are these guys using the corpses of slain American kids as props to score geopolitical points? Sad to say, my answer is, "It sure seems that way."



The difference is, Brits and Europeans in general tend to be less sentimental than Americans.

When there was an out pouring of American style grief at the death of Princess Diana in the UK, most of the population, which wasn't conveniently shown on TV mourning were vomiting down the toilet at all the ersatz grief.

BTW When Israel slaughtered 300 Palestinian children, Americans lacked empathy and blamed the Palestinians themselves for their children being slaughtered by Israel.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/20/2012 2:48:29 PM >


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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 2:58:23 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

BTW When Israel slaughtered 300 Palestinian children, Americans lacked empathy and blamed the Palestinians themselves for their children being slaughtered by Israel.

I see dead Palestinian kids also make handy props for slamming the U.S. One hopes that brought comfort to their families.

Just out of curiosity, is there any heartbreak even you wouldn't exploit?

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 3:02:56 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


I see dead Palestinian kids also make handy props for slamming the U.S. One hopes that brought comfort to their families.

Just out of curiosity, is there any heartbreak even you wouldn't exploit?


You should ask your politicians that before you ask anyone else.

BTW One might be shocked by Newtown, one might empathize with the victims but don't tell me that people who don't know the victims personally are actually mourning, that is just ersatz emotion.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/20/2012 3:05:17 PM >


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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 3:14:33 PM   
dcnovice


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nm.

May those who died rest in peace.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 12/20/2012 3:35:33 PM >


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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 3:16:26 PM   
tazzygirl


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Ersatz.... funny word.

How do you know my emotions over this was "ersatz"?

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 5:51:58 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

(a) The Sandy Hook massacre happened here. In a quiet, prosperous Connecticut town not in a distant region oft-associated, perhaps unfairly, with strife. The Newtown deaths evoke a visceral "That could have been my kid" response. I saw that personally with my brother, who lives in the next town over and whose neighbors will be going to funerals this Christmas. Does that mean that losing children to drones is any less awful? Of course not. But, like it or not, folks react differently to things that hit home.

I agree. I cannot look at the faces of those lovely children without feeling great sadness, near to tears at the loss. To many here, however, it will be just a news event that will pass from memory. Certainly the news media cannot turn away from such a home tragedy but I have to question the saturation of the coverage.

quote:

(b) Given time and space, the Sandy Hook shootings fused into a single horror--fast and furious. In just minutes (was it seconds?), 26 people lay dead, two dozen families shattered forever. That kind of tragic drama arrests the attention in a way that single deaths, even if they add up to a larger total, do not. Perhaps our minds shouldn't work that way, but my experience has been that they do.

In addition, there is the distance and the "otherness" of the people of Asia and the ME that act as a barrier to our feeling of immediacy and empathy. Often tragic events in foreign lands are just passing headlines to us that we do not even bother to read unless we are exposed to some in-depth reporting, which is rare.

quote:

(b) It's clear that both UK authors have long-standing (and perhaps warranted) beefs with U.S. foreign policy. That's their right, of course. But their perfunctory discussion of Newtown and their utter lack of empathy for Americans stunned and sorrowed by the massacre leave me asking a hard question: Are these guys using the corpses of slain American kids as props to score geopolitical points? Sad to say, my answer is, "It sure seems that way."

That is a harsh manner of expressing it but without question they are. Can we not say the same about the gun control debate that has arisen over this event? I think so. Are the pols who are stepping forward to advocate new gun laws not taking advantage of the same corpses? I think so. The same to be said for the Brit correspondents who are advocating war control. The difference is that the Brits are trying to transfer the empathy and outrage we feel to stop what our government is doing to others, while the pols are trying to transfer our national agony to to stop what we are doing to ourselves.

I have read some terrible descriptions about the birth defects and child cancer wards in Basra. Theirs is a special agony. And who can imagine the terror of children in the tribal regions of west Pakistan when they hear the sound of a drone overhead?

quote:

I'm not a great fan of what I call competitive misery. Whenever I detect, as I did with the UK writers, an undercurrent of "But [insert tragedy here] is even worse than your sorrow," I tend to sigh and move on. For me at least, compassion is not a zero-sum game.


Agreed about compassion, but the awareness by US citizens of the cruelty imposed on children by our war machine is quite dim, I think.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 12/20/2012 5:59:48 PM >

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 6:20:38 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I have to question the saturation of the coverage.

I do too, but I'm not sure it's any more saturated than coverage of comparable events. I remember a friend saying, only half in jest, that folks weren't gonna know what to do with their time and energy once the OJ trial ended.


quote:

Often tragic events in foreign lands are just passing headlines to us that we do not even bother to read unless we are exposed to some in-depth reporting, which is rare.

I was just about to say "True," but then I thought of the tsunami of 2004. It got an amazing amount of coverage, and every schoolkid I knew seemed to be involved in some sort of fund-raiser. That said, I do think folks--and not just Americans, for that matter--focus most on what's happening in their own corner of the world.


quote:

That is a harsh manner of expressing it but without question they are. Can we not say the same about the gun control debate that has arisen over this event? I think so. Are the pols who are stepping forward to advocate new gun laws not taking advantage of the same corpses? I think so.

Whole lotta opportunism going on, I agree. Where I would distinguish between the gun-control debaters cum suddenly proactive legislators and the UK columnists is that the former seem at least to be somewhat rooted in Newtown and puzzling over how best to prevent it from happening again. In contrast, what struck me about the latter, and drew what I hope is unwonted harshness, was that they really seemed to give fuck-all about the Newtown killings, except to see them as a handy hook for advancing a completely different agenda. Part of my annoyance stems, I'm sure, from their using an American tragedy to slam America. It would not have occurred to me in 2005 that the 7/7 bombings were a soapbox for reviewing Britain's continued occupation of Northern Ireland or the Commonwealth's inclusion of notoriously homophobic Uganda.


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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 6:23:52 PM   
jlf1961


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Name one country, that during war, did not drop bombs or shell enemy civilians and children?

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/20/2012 11:02:42 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The difference is, Brits and Europeans in general tend to be less sentimental than Americans.


Less outwardly sentimental, at least.

Above ~14 dead at once, things hit the news in a big way, was the observation ABB made; he seems to have been right.

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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/21/2012 1:18:25 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ersatz.... funny word.

How do you know my emotions over this was "ersatz"?


There has been a lot of psychological research into copy cat emotions after such events, which suggests people react publicly in a way they think will publicly identify themselves to the person or group affected. It is more about public display that personal emotion.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/21/2012 1:20:42 AM >


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RE: Muslim Children vs Newtown Children - 12/21/2012 5:17:20 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Part of my annoyance stems, I'm sure, from their using an American tragedy to slam America. It would not have occurred to me in 2005 that the 7/7 bombings were a soapbox for reviewing Britain's continued occupation of Northern Ireland or the Commonwealth's inclusion of notoriously homophobic Uganda.

Good point.

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