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RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/10/2013 6:07:12 PM

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If he doesnt tell anyone... and no one sees it... how is anyone supposed to help him?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/10/2013 6:14:12 PM

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People are talking about you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

quote:

You never once answered it directly. So, try again.

We went through 3 pages or more in a row about this earlier in this thread. I've given you very clear answers why there are less males seeking assistance. Even others have explained to you about the attitude a lot of people have towards male victims. But no matter how much I and others point out the reasons, it just goes through one ear and out the other and next thing 5 minutes later you backpeddle and ask the same questions like they never got answered. It's useless.

To prove the point even more about how much people care about male victims, a male is even considered wrong to talk about it in this forum. He's whiny, a misogynist, he's got victim mentality etc etc etc. That alone shows just how concerned society is about male victims.

And yet in your next post we will see you go off once again on your usual tangent about how it's all my fault and the fault of male victims yada yada yada. *yawn*

_____________________________

I hate when I'm wearing my apple bottom jeans, but i can't find my boots with the fur.

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RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/10/2013 6:15:21 PM

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I'd like to know how as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If he doesnt tell anyone... and no one sees it... how is anyone supposed to help him?

_____________________________

I hate when I'm wearing my apple bottom jeans, but i can't find my boots with the fur.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/10/2013 6:18:20 PM

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Nick seems to think I am saying the man is responsible for his own abuse.

I am saying the man is responsible for his own freedom.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MissAsylum)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/10/2013 6:58:57 PM

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Completely agree.

I feel that an adult who stays quiet about a harmful situation is telling the abuser that they are quite alright with it.

Edit: because that made ZERO sense as written.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Nick seems to think I am saying the man is responsible for his own abuse.

I am saying the man is responsible for his own freedom.

< Message edited by MissAsylum -- 1/10/2013 7:00:08 PM >

_____________________________

I hate when I'm wearing my apple bottom jeans, but i can't find my boots with the fur.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 8:55:31 AM

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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

I know I am coming in late to this debate however I just had to comment on one thing.

quote:

I am saying the man is responsible for his own freedom.

Yes but do not the same go for a woman? Is she not also responsible for her own freedom? We know that the same psychological damage that can make an abused woman stay with her abuser even when she have plenty of chances to escape can just as easily affect men, should not the the same standard for how we view someone who is being abused apply to both genders equally?

I wish you well

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 9:14:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

I know I am coming in late to this debate however I just had to comment on one thing.

quote:

I am saying the man is responsible for his own freedom.

Yes but do not the same go for a woman? Is she not also responsible for her own freedom? We know that the same psychological damage that can make an abused woman stay with her abuser even when she have plenty of chances to escape can just as easily affect men, should not the the same standard for how we view someone who is being abused apply to both genders equally?

I wish you well

Of course she is responsible for her own freedom. No one said otherwise. Replace the "he's" with "she's" and its no different.

A MAN is responsible for his own freedom.

A WOMAN is responsible for her own freedom.

ffs, I have been saying this for days now.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to nephandi)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 12:45:40 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

I know I am coming in late to this debate however I just had to comment on one thing.

quote:

I am saying the man is responsible for his own freedom.

Yes but do not the same go for a woman? Is she not also responsible for her own freedom? We know that the same psychological damage that can make an abused woman stay with her abuser even when she have plenty of chances to escape can just as easily affect men, should not the the same standard for how we view someone who is being abused apply to both genders equally?

I wish you well

Of course she is responsible for her own freedom. No one said otherwise. Replace the "he's" with "she's" and its no different.

A MAN is responsible for his own freedom.

A WOMAN is responsible for her own freedom.

ffs, I have been saying this for days now.

Ya know Tazzy, if you keep talking about personal responsibility, they are going to take away your liberal-zombie card.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 12:53:38 PM

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Greetings

I do agree with you Tazzy, in theory, but I also think that you can not just ignore psychological trauma and the damage that causes. We know many who are abused are unable to leave and I think that being psychologically unable to do something because of trauma is nothing different from being physically unable and therefore just saying that it is everyone's personal responsibility to get away from an abusive situation do not always work I agree that as far as possible people have to take that responsibility themselves, but what when someone is just not able to as they have been so emotionally damaged?

I wish you well

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 1:19:50 PM

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Nephandi...

In the US, we dont need a victim to press charges. If I hear the man in the next building beating someone, I can call the police. The police can press charges of assault.. or domestic violence. The responsibility I am speaking about it letting other's know it is happening. Keeping silent about being abused... or other ignoring the signs of abuse.. is what allows abusers to get away with so much.

Nick has admitted to being slapped by a woman... he called it domestic violence. Yet, he did not press charges, didnt call the police. He accepted the slap then walked away. While that is his right, it allows the woman to do exactly the same thing to the next guy... maybe even more.

Accepting physical violence from anyone is never right. This is something we have been teaching women for decades. Seems its something men need to learn as well. Allowing it to progress to the point that it becomes psychologically ingrained should never happen.

Can it be insidious? Yes. But at the first slap/punch/ect that occurs that I did not consent too, I am out the door.

Instead we teach boys it good to fight, yet they cant hit women. Why? They should be taught not to hit anyone. Just as men who abuse typically come from abusive familes, so do women.

I do not blame the victim for being in that situation. I do blame the victim for not seeking help when its abundantly available. And staying for the children is no excuse... they learn what they see... so a woman who stays because of the kids is merely allowing them to grow up to be as psychologically damaged as she is.

As you can tell, I have very strong opinions on DV and victims.

And I still insist that the responsibility to seek freedom belongs first with the victim. The chances of catching an abuser beating a victim are slim these days.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to nephandi)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 1:21:16 PM

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quote:

Ya know Tazzy, if you keep talking about personal responsibility, they are going to take away your liberal-zombie card.

Hahahahaha

Im moderate in many things.

Except my liberal card.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 1:46:16 PM

Posts: 4470
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Greetings

quote:

In the US, we dont need a victim to press charges. If I hear the man in the next building beating someone, I can call the police. The police can press charges of assault.. or domestic violence. The responsibility I am speaking about it letting other's know it is happening. Keeping silent about being abused... or other ignoring the signs of abuse.. is what allows abusers to get away with so much.

I agree, my point is that many are not able to tell anyone as they have been convinced that they do not deserve help, that it is all their fault or they are to scared to, as well as a number of other ideas that might have been beaten into them. I do think people should talk about abuse if they can, and that everyone have the responsibility to ask for help if they need it and to help others if they see others in need. I am just saying that sometimes someone is in need but are unable to ask for help, and that it is not always down to personal responsibility. I am responsible for myself and finding my way out of a forest if I go to visit one, however if I break my leg I might not be able to get out on my own, no matter how much personal responsibility I take.

quote:

Nick has admitted to being slapped by a woman... he called it domestic violence. Yet, he did not press charges, didnt call the police. He accepted the slap then walked away. While that is his right, it allows the woman to do exactly the same thing to the next guy... maybe even more.

Yes but here is the rub, with personal responsibility comes personal sovereignty. Nick used that sovereignty to walk away and he also choose to just drop the matter which is his right. You can not both say that people should take complete responsibility for themselves and then dictate what personal choices that person should do.

quote:

Accepting physical violence from anyone is never right. This is something we have been teaching women for decades. Seems its something men need to learn as well. Allowing it to progress to the point that it becomes psychologically ingrained should never happen.

I do not think that staying in an abusive relationship, that be physically or emotionally abusive is a good idea nor that it is healthy. However to say that you should never accept violence, I do not agree. If I am out late one night and some drunk idiot take a swing at me I am more likely to just hit him back and let the matter drop than to untold amount of time trying to get him arrested, that is just not worth it for example. I do think it is perfectly valid to just walk away from a violent situation.

quote:

Can it be insidious? Yes. But at the first slap/punch/ect that occurs that I did not consent too, I am out the door.

I agree I would do the same if my partner hit me on purpose without my consent or within the confines of a relationship where it would be premissable, I would leave immediately, probably after hitting him or her back.

quote:

Instead we teach boys it good to fight, yet they cant hit women. Why? They should be taught not to hit anyone. Just as men who abuse typically come from abusive familes, so do women.

Human beings are violent creatures we can not deny that. My grandfather taught me to never hit those weaker than me regardless of their gender, unless it was in self defense and never do violence unless I had a very, very good reason to. I agree with him on this. I do not think that we should teach boys or girls that there is never a reason for violence, but rather teach people to take responsibility for their own actions an that violence very seldom is the solution to any problem.

quote:

I do not blame the victim for being in that situation. I do blame the victim for not seeking help when its abundantly available. And staying for the children is no excuse... they learn what they see... so a woman who stays because of the kids is merely allowing them to grow up to be as psychologically damaged as she is.

Not everyone manages to seek help and you can not blame them for that. Also staying because of children at least in USA there are good reasons for that if she do not have the economy to be able to afford medical aid, education and the like for her children then she might find that she have no choice but to stay with an abusive partner to be sure they have what they need.

quote:

And I still insist that the responsibility to seek freedom belongs first with the victim. The chances of catching an abuser beating a victim are slim these days.

I agree however I do not think it is always the victim that is to blame if they do not manage to ask for help or get out of the bad situation they are in. I am fully in favor of personal responsibility, but to use it as a by all end all answer is not right either.

I wish you well.

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 2:05:05 PM

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quote:

I agree, my point is that many are not able to tell anyone as they have been convinced that they do not deserve help, that it is all their fault or they are to scared to, as well as a number of other ideas that might have been beaten into them. I do think people should talk about abuse if they can, and that everyone have the responsibility to ask for help if they need it and to help others if they see others in need. I am just saying that sometimes someone is in need but are unable to ask for help, and that it is not always down to personal responsibility. I am responsible for myself and finding my way out of a forest if I go to visit one, however if I break my leg I might not be able to get out on my own, no matter how much personal responsibility I take.

I disagree. That was the climate back in the 80's. No one spoke about what happened within a marriage/relationship. This day and age, with social media being the preferred mode of communication, most women in the work force, and the empowerment push for the last few decades, it doesnt have to get to that point unless the victim desires it too. Someone knows. Then its up to that someone to help.

The excuse given here is that men simply dont talk about such things. They arent "allowed" they are too "embarrassed" they feel they will be emasculated. That no one will take them seriously. This is the position women were in, in the US, in the 80's. And its now that attitude that its ok to speak out, and loudly, that some men in this thread are railing against.

quote:

Yes but here is the rub, with personal responsibility comes personal sovereignty. Nick used that sovereignty to walk away and he also choose to just drop the matter which is his right. You can not both say that people should take complete responsibility for themselves and then dictate what personal choices that person should do.

That was also in the context of him saying that no one is willing to help a man who is being abused. My response is.. help yourself. By refusing to make such a report, he is allowing that abuser to abuse the next victim. Sure, its his choice, as I clearly said. However, a paper trail in the criminal system goes a long way to making sure the next victim is more easily believed. A history of domestic violence against an abuser, even just charges, makes the police take more notice when a complaint is lodged against a specific person.

Keeping domestic violence a secret is what allowed so many to get away with it in the past.

quote:

I do not think that staying in an abusive relationship, that be physically or emotionally abusive is a good idea nor that it is healthy. However to say that you should never accept violence, I do not agree. If I am out late one night and some drunk idiot take a swing at me I am more likely to just hit him back and let the matter drop than to untold amount of time trying to get him arrested, that is just not worth it for example. I do think it is perfectly valid to just walk away from a violent situation.

This I disgree with as well. This person has an anger control issue. Coupled with am obvious drinking problem, they are more than likely to become extremely dangerous with someone. Just walking away is your option. Just dont expect me to listen to someone whine about the amount of violence caused by a drunk later on.

quote:

Not everyone manages to seek help and you can not blame them for that. Also staying because of children at least in USA there are good reasons for that if she do not have the economy to be able to afford medical aid, education and the like for her children then she might find that she have no choice but to stay with an abusive partner to be sure they have what they need.

While the system is not perfect, a woman (or man) who leaves an abusive relationship will be granted housing, medical insurance, and a slew of other assistance until they get back on their feet. To quickly be followed by child support. Staying with an abusive person for the sake of the kids, using those excuses, and just that.. excuses to allow something to continue. Reality is, sure, its tough to leave, but it is possible, and far healthier for the children to do so.

quote:

I agree however I do not think it is always the victim that is to blame if they do not manage to ask for help or get out of the bad situation they are in. I am fully in favor of personal responsibility, but to use it as a by all end all answer is not right either.

Empowerment works only so much. After the laws are set into place, after the programs are set up, after all the support that is offered... no matter what the problem/disease/issue, its up to the victim to tap into those resources. Simply throwing up one's hands and crying "No one will help me" isnt the answer.. and its not something I can agree with. Help is available... all you have to do is ask.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to nephandi)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 2:16:11 PM

Aylee

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Joined: 10/14/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

I do agree with you Tazzy, in theory, but I also think that you can not just ignore psychological trauma and the damage that causes. We know many who are abused are unable to leave and I think that being psychologically unable to do something because of trauma is nothing different from being physically unable and therefore just saying that it is everyone's personal responsibility to get away from an abusive situation do not always work I agree that as far as possible people have to take that responsibility themselves, but what when someone is just not able to as they have been so emotionally damaged?

I wish you well

Umm. . . this begs the question, why didn't they leave when it first started?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to nephandi)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 9:20:15 PM

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95.3% of men felt domestic violence agencies were anti-male...40% reported being accused of perpetrating DV when seeking help at said agencies.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf

Of the 132 men who sought help from a DVagency, 44.1% (n=86) said that this resource was not at all helpful; further, 95.3% of those men (n=81) said that they were given the impression that the agency was biased against men.

Some of the men were accused of being the batterer in the relationship: This happened to men seeking help from DVagencies (40.2%), DV hotlines (32.2%) and online resources (18.9%). Over 25% of those using an online resource reported that they were given a phone number for help which turned out to be the number for a batterer’s program.

(in reply to Aylee)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 9:30:31 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

95.3% of men felt domestic violence agencies were anti-male...40% reported being accused of perpetrating DV when seeking help at said agencies.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf

Of the 132 men who sought help from a DVagency, 44.1% (n=86) said that this resource was not at all helpful; further, 95.3% of those men (n=81) said that they were given the impression that the agency was biased against men.

Some of the men were accused of being the batterer in the relationship: This happened to men seeking help from DVagencies (40.2%), DV hotlines (32.2%) and online resources (18.9%). Over 25% of those using an online resource reported that they were given a phone number for help which turned out to be the number for a batterer’s program.

And this explains why a female or male did not leave when the abuse started how?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 9:38:41 PM

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~FR

Limitations and Future Research

The limitations of this study need to be considered in
future research. First, we cannot assess the legitimacy of
the accounts and reports of abuse and helpseeking in this
study. Since the men were recruited via the Internet we
have no way to confirm the legitimacy of their reports.
Moreover, it is possible that some men, especially those
recruited through men’s advocacy groups, may have “an
axe to grind” and thus, reported false information. In
addition, it is possible that such men would have been
more likely to have had negative helpseeking experiences
and therefore, joined such a group. That said, it is
unlikely that the majority of the 302 men in this study
fabricated the experiences that they reported in this
30 min Internet study. These men likely had to overcome
several societal and internal barriers to seeking help
(Addis & Mahalic, 2003) and by this very factor are
likely reporting legitimate concerns. Also, it is not
unusual for the experiences of victims to be denied
when they first surface (Schatzow and Herman 1989),
and we believe that given enough research, the service
needs of this group will be recognized as a reality just as it
has for other groups.

Second, we were not able to recruit men who could not
access the Internet or the DAHMW. Thus, we are likely
missing the experiences of important groups who are
potentially in need of help and whose experiences could
differ from those of the men we surveyed. Third, and
perhaps on a related note, the men in this study are
primarily White and well educated. It is possible that men
with lower levels of education or from other ethnic
backgrounds might have different experiences with helpseeking.

Fourth, the men in this study were asked to recall
events that primarily occurred over the past year, but also
some events that happened in their childhood (e.g.,
childhood violence socialization). As with all retrospective
studies, the questions that dealt with childhood issues are
subject to potential problems with recall, in that people
currently experiencing any form of IPV might overestimate
their childhood experiences with aggression, while those
not experiencing IPV might underestimate them.

Nonetheless, adult recall is a standard method for assessing
childhood trauma (Derevensky and Deschamps 1997;
Finkelhor et al. 1990; Ruggiero et al. 2004; Wonderlich et
al. 1996), and for this study, childhood trauma was used
solely as a covariate. If childhood experiences of aggression
were overestimated by the helpseekers, that would result in
an underestimation of the association between helpseeking
experiences and mental health outcomes, in which case, the
associations we measured would be underestimated. Fifth,
in-depth experiences with more potential service providers,
such as members of the clergy, social workers, and
attorneys, should be assessed to investigate the extent to
which men find these resources helpful and how they may
impact their mental health. And finally, a wider array of
mental health outcomes should also be assessed, including
depression and anxiety

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/files/2012/01/Douglas-Hines-2011-helpseeking-experiences-of-male-victims.pdf

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to naughtynick81)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 9:43:51 PM

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From: Somewhere Texas
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ALright, most men leave an abusive relationship and dont go back, however they have a tendency to become abusive in future relationships, at least according to some studies, but my personal opinion is that is bullshit.

The ones that stay do so out of shame and embarrassment.

And no it is rarely reported not because the people who deal with these problems are femalecentric, but because they are embarrassed.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 9:45:25 PM

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I completely agree.. they are embarrassed... or they, like women, are so in love that they take the abuse.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: Male victimization in modern society. - 1/11/2013 9:57:54 PM

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I completely agree.. they are embarrassed... or they, like women, are so in love that they take the abuse.

Of course the most common form of male victimization is when a guy goes to a bar, buys a girl lots of drinks, and then she introduces him to her lesbian lover.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tazzygirl)

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