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"Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do you... - 1/20/2013 9:27:10 AM

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Your Brain in a Shootout: Guns, Fear and Flawed Instincts

In the roiling national set-to over whether guns would make schools safer, most of the debate has been a caricature of itself. One side wants to install guns in every school, and the other wants to banish them. “I wish to God [the principal] had had an M-4 in her office, locked up,” Republican Representative Louie Gohmert of Texas said on Fox News after the Newtown, Conn., school massacre, “so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out … and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids.”

But the research on actual gunfights, the kind that happen not in a politician’s head but in fluorescent-lit stairwells and strip-mall restaurants around America, reveals something surprising. Winning a gunfight without shooting innocent people typically requires realistic, expensive training and a special kind of person, a fact that has been strangely absent in all the back-and-forth about assault-weapon bans and the Second Amendment.

(MORE: America’s New Gunfight: Inside the Campaign to Avert Mass Shootings)

In the New York City police department, for example, officers involved in gunfights typically hit their intended targets only 18% of the time, according to a Rand study. When they fired 16 times at an armed man outside the Empire State Building last summer, they hit nine bystanders and left 10 bullet holes in the suspect—a better-than-average hit ratio. In most cases, officers involved in shootings experience a kaleidoscope of sensory distortions including tunnel vision and a loss of hearing. Afterward, they are sometimes surprised to learn that they have fired their weapons at all.

“Real gun battles are not Call of Duty,” says Ryan Millbern, who responded to an active-shooter incident and an armed bank robbery among other calls during his decade as a police officer in Colorado.

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/16/your-brain-in-a-shootout-guns-fear-and-flawed-instincts/

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 10:04:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
Your Brain in a Shootout: Guns, Fear and Flawed Instincts
In the roiling national set-to over whether guns would make schools safer, most of the debate has been a caricature of itself. One side wants to install guns in every school, and the other wants to banish them. “I wish to God [the principal] had had an M-4 in her office, locked up,” Republican Representative Louie Gohmert of Texas said on Fox News after the Newtown, Conn., school massacre, “so when she heard gunfire, she pulls it out … and takes his head off before he can kill those precious kids.”
But the research on actual gunfights, the kind that happen not in a politician’s head but in fluorescent-lit stairwells and strip-mall restaurants around America, reveals something surprising. Winning a gunfight without shooting innocent people typically requires realistic, expensive training and a special kind of person, a fact that has been strangely absent in all the back-and-forth about assault-weapon bans and the Second Amendment.
(MORE: America’s New Gunfight: Inside the Campaign to Avert Mass Shootings)
In the New York City police department, for example, officers involved in gunfights typically hit their intended targets only 18% of the time, according to a Rand study. When they fired 16 times at an armed man outside the Empire State Building last summer, they hit nine bystanders and left 10 bullet holes in the suspect—a better-than-average hit ratio. In most cases, officers involved in shootings experience a kaleidoscope of sensory distortions including tunnel vision and a loss of hearing. Afterward, they are sometimes surprised to learn that they have fired their weapons at all.
“Real gun battles are not Call of Duty,” says Ryan Millbern, who responded to an active-shooter incident and an armed bank robbery among other calls during his decade as a police officer in Colorado.
Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/16/your-brain-in-a-shootout-guns-fear-and-flawed-instincts/

Just goes to show you how awesome the A-Team was. I don't know that they ever missed!

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 10:23:53 AM

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It is not the training, it is more biological. There have been studies to prove this. When confronted by danger, real or imiginary, our bodies, go into what is called "Fight or Flight Response". Some of the bodies response are, as you have stated, dilation of pupil (mydriasis), shaking, tunnel vision (loss of peripheral vision) and auditory exclusion (loss of hearing). Add the psychological effects like "When our fight or flight system is activated, we tend to perceive everything in our environment as a possible threat to our survival".
The most noted example of this is the shoot out at the OK Corral, in 30 seconds some 30 rounds were fired, all involved were no further then 10 feet, yet only 3 were dead, 3 wounded. No amount of training is going to completly over come what Nature has created and refined in over the time all animals have been on this planet.

http://www.thebodysoulconnection.com/EducationCenter/fight.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/shootout-at-the-ok-corral

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 10:35:56 AM

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OR - it could simply be that pistols are notoriously inaccurate, especially when snap-shooting...

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 11:20:20 AM

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It's too long to quote the whole thing, but I found the depiction of this policy academy trainer's experience in a gun fight interesting:

At 3 p.m. one autumn day in 2004, Jim Glennon found himself being shot at without warning. He was a lieutenant, a third-generation cop who had decided on the spur of the moment to help out on a routine shoplifting call. The suspect, a white man in his mid-50s, had walked out of a liquor store with a bottle of vodka without paying for it, and the police had tracked his license plate to a condo complex in a suburb of Chicago.

The officers knocked on the door at the end of a long hallway and got no response. After a few minutes, Glennon started to suggest they come back with a warrant. That was when the man threw open the door and began firing a black snub-nosed revolver from three feet away.

Glennon was a police-academy trainer, unusually well schooled in survival skills. But from the moment he saw the revolver, his mind entered a state unlike anything he’d experienced before. “Oh s—! Gun!” he said, spinning his body hard to the left, missing a bullet by inches or less.

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/16/your-brain-in-a-shootout-guns-fear-and-flawed-instincts/#ixzz2IXqxEOwy

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 1:16:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

OR - it could simply be that pistols are notoriously inaccurate, especially when snap-shooting...

Most pistols today do have some accuracy at close range and do require training. However, as pointed out, shaking poor vision and feeling of danger are more likely causes.

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 6:30:35 PM

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The story points out that in spite of extensive training, things went wrong.

In real life that is a given, only in a comic book mentality is there ever 'enough' training to ensure wonderful outcomes.

Some people may remember the answer to the question 'What's the first thing to malfunction in actual combat?'...

The fact is, that it was this officer's extensive training that kept everything from getting worse and worse , even when several things went wrong, as they will in the real world.

Instead he reached over and grabbed the gun out of the holster of the injured officer...

Something that would be made impossible by at least one of the 'magic bandaid' solutions being currently touted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

It's too long to quote the whole thing, but I found the depiction of this policy academy trainer's experience in a gun fight interesting:

At 3 p.m. one autumn day in 2004, Jim Glennon found himself being shot at without warning. He was a lieutenant, a third-generation cop who had decided on the spur of the moment to help out on a routine shoplifting call. The suspect, a white man in his mid-50s, had walked out of a liquor store with a bottle of vodka without paying for it, and the police had tracked his license plate to a condo complex in a suburb of Chicago.

The officers knocked on the door at the end of a long hallway and got no response. After a few minutes, Glennon started to suggest they come back with a warrant. That was when the man threw open the door and began firing a black snub-nosed revolver from three feet away.

Glennon was a police-academy trainer, unusually well schooled in survival skills. But from the moment he saw the revolver, his mind entered a state unlike anything he’d experienced before. “Oh s—! Gun!” he said, spinning his body hard to the left, missing a bullet by inches or less.

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2013/01/16/your-brain-in-a-shootout-guns-fear-and-flawed-instincts/#ixzz2IXqxEOwy

< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 1/20/2013 7:29:36 PM >

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 6:37:22 PM

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Might I suggest that we arm our police officers with select fire mini Uzis.

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 9:32:00 PM

kdsub

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To me it is not how good of a fight an armed security guard could put up in a shoot out...but... just his presence would or at least could be a deterrent. Otherwise nut cases may not pick a school as a target if they know there is an armed security guard.

If nothing else the security guard would be the first target and that may give the rest time to lock down their rooms and call police.

Otherwise I see nothing wrong in having trained armed security in schools. I don’t believe teachers or those not properly trained or sanctioned should be armed however.

Butch

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 9:35:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

To me it is not how good of a fight an armed security guard could put up in a shoot out...but... just his presence would or at least could be a deterrent. Otherwise nut cases may not pick a school as a target if they know there is an armed security guard.

If nothing else the security guard would be the first target and that may give the rest time to lock down their rooms and call police.

Otherwise I see nothing wrong in having trained armed security in schools. I don’t believe teachers or those not properly trained or sanctioned should be armed however.

Butch

Considering the average pay of a private security guard, I am not sure he would put up much of a fight, he aint getting paid enough to put is ass on the line.
Unless he is working a DOD site or Trojan Horse site, then the pay is considerably better.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 9:39:48 PM

kdsub

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If I had my way every school would have an armed security guard and every room would have a steel windowless, or bullet proof glassed, door that can be locked from the inside by teachers or remotely by security or the principle.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 9:41:58 PM

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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

If I had my way every school would have an armed security guard and every room would have a steel windowless, or bullet proof glassed, door that can be locked from the inside by teachers or remotely by security or the principle.

Butch

Actually, that is not a bad idea. 2 inch thick bullet proof windows, blast proof doors with blast windows, would use police officers instead of armed private security, with some of the cops being in street clothes.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 9:43:18 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Considering the average pay of a private security guard, I am not sure he would put up much of a fight, he aint getting paid enough to put is ass on the line.
Unless he is working a DOD site or Trojan Horse site, then the pay is considerably better.

In my district they hire off duty police officers... They are always looking for ways to get full social security benefits. I understand this would not be practical in many areas but if I had to pay for a school tax increase to hire properly trained security I would...how about yourself? Better yet have a mandated federal program and see if the Republicans would vote against it.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 9:49:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Considering the average pay of a private security guard, I am not sure he would put up much of a fight, he aint getting paid enough to put is ass on the line.
Unless he is working a DOD site or Trojan Horse site, then the pay is considerably better.

In my district they hire off duty police officers... They are always looking for ways to get full social security benefits. I understand this would not be practical in many areas but if I had to pay for a school tax increase to hire properly trained security I would...how about yourself? Better yet have a mandated federal program and see if the Republicans would vote against it.

Butch

Around here there are three assigned police officers in the High Schools, at least in town, and four patrol cars when kids are arriving or leaving.

The schools outside the city in the various communities have four sheriff's patrol cars when students are arriving and leaving. None during the day.

Which is a bit strange since the High School parking lot at my alma mater is off school property, and there are a few country boy pickups with lever action rifles and pump shotguns in gun racks in the back window.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 9:49:36 PM

kdsub

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lol... Just a good door and lock will do. If they can't get in the room they can't kill...quickly anyway.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 10:03:15 PM

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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

lol... Just a good door and lock will do. If they can't get in the room they can't kill...quickly anyway.

Butch

true enough, but I have been reading various "Specialists" who claim that mental illness related violence is on the rise in the US. However I can find no Justice Department stats that back that up, so I have not really posted much about it.

Around here, the lever action rifle is more common than the so called assault weapons. Admittedly eight of my 15 guns are assault weapon type rifles, and I use the .223 AR to deal with bobcats and such around here, the bigger calibers are used against wild hogs, that the state of Texas says they will deal with them, but hasnt.

Hog hunters charge big money to clear a farm or ranch, this area has been in Drought conditions going on 12 years, the farmers and ranchers around me cannot afford to pay the bill, so I and a few friends go out and hunt the hogs for nothing. Last year one rancher gave the six of us a side of beef for trying to clear the hogs from his property, but the problem is that when hogs arent rooting up fields, they are having baby hogs.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 10:06:02 PM

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As for the op's premise, I have to agree.

Police officers do not deal with shooting situations on a daily basis, and on the combat pistol ranges, the targets are not shooting back.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 10:10:17 PM

kdsub

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Oh I agree as well...although here in my town they did a good job when a nutcase started shooting up out town meeting. But like I said above they would be more of a deterrent and along with good doors and locks it should stop most of these killings I think.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to jlf1961)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/20/2013 10:13:06 PM

Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Oh I agree as well...although here in my town they did a good job when a nutcase started shooting up out town meeting. But like I said above they would be more of a deterrent and along with good doors and locks it should stop most of these killings I think.

Butch

True a good deterrent. But I honestly wish there was some way to improve the training in a combat situation, perhaps something like the army uses.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do... - 1/21/2013 1:36:58 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Oh I agree as well...although here in my town they did a good job when a nutcase started shooting up out town meeting. But like I said above they would be more of a deterrent and along with good doors and locks it should stop most of these killings I think.

Butch

True a good deterrent. But I honestly wish there was some way to improve the training in a combat situation, perhaps something like the army uses.

Law Enforcement is not Combat, two different things, unless you want to bring the police under the control of the Military but isn't that what the NRA is against? Or at least say it is.

(in reply to jlf1961)

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> "Cops aren’t trained well enough, so what do you think they’re going to do with teachers?"

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