RE: Guns (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Guns


There is too much regulation already.
  10% (28)
There should be far more stringent background checks.
  15% (39)
Reinstate the ban on assault guns.
  11% (29)
Make conceal and carry the law in all 50 states.
  10% (28)
Make gun classes mandatory.
  16% (42)
The only guns availible to the public should be hunting rifles.
  4% (12)
The 2nd amendment includes individuals owning firearms.
  21% (54)
The 2nd amendment does not include individuals, it's been distorted.
  3% (8)
I wish my country had gun laws similar to the US
  0% (1)
I don't want my country to have gun laws like the US
  6% (16)


Total Votes : 257
(last vote on : 2/2/2013 9:53:19 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

DesideriScuri -> RE: Guns (1/26/2013 9:50:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
From what I can determine, most on here that support guns are decent and law-abiding citzens. But unfortunately, there are far too many throughout the US that aren't...

From what I can determine, most drivers are decent law-abiding citizens. But unfortunately, there are far too many throughout the U.S. that get boozed up and climb behind the wheel. Would you suggest we outlaw vehicles with engines over 100hp? Lower the speed limit to 30mph on our Interstates?
There's the problem: the "solutions" being touted are bullshit.
K.

There's your problem, right there....!
That in fact, you've been unable to determine that this is a topic about guns.
Focus.


Focus, your focus, needs more focus. Kirata is simply showing the absurdity of the claims by applying them to another situation.

I would have figured Aussies would have experience in that type of debate, too. At least enough to recognize it.



jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/26/2013 9:56:33 PM)

You must remember the following:

1) Never use an analogy to demonstrate a point, especially with brits.

2) Never use an analogy to try and make a comparison... especially with a brit.

3) No matter what an american says, we are wrong.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Guns (1/26/2013 9:57:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
You are assuming that domestic gun violence happens in homes "where guns are kept readily at hand like in a drawer or closet etc." You really think that's commonplace?

Yep.


Anything to back that assertion up? No? Ah. Okay.

quote:

quote:

quote:

We can all understand Jo Citizen not wanting to confront a perp with heavy firepower but someone going nuts with a knife or club etc? Someone would act and the death vs injury ratio would be much less, regardless.

Depends on the level of mastery the person has with the object.

FFS...! You're seriously equivacating the overall killing power of clubs and knives etc to firearms???? Sheesh...![font]


Firearms are raw power. Not everyone has the technique and training to take full advantage of that power. Any meathead can pick up a club, a bat, or a hammer. A sword or knife will take more experience, but they, too, can be deadly. Or, are you stating that some dead people are okay, but a lot of dead people isn't?

quote:

quote:

Shaming us to look at the elephant in the room?!? That's what you did? Sorry, but, no. No you didn't. You essentially said, "I don't accept as valid the solutions you are currently discussing, that you think are valid, so you can't use those. But you still have to present solutions that I will accept as valid." You are essentially giving a limited area for people to find a solution where none of your questionees believes there is a solution.

No, not did, it's what I've *attempted* to do. The fact that you're all in denial and paranoid at the prospect of having one gun taken off you is enough for you to close your eyes and put an index finger firmly in each ear and chant ad nauseum, "la la la la....".
The only choices you're willing to see are background checks, gun classes (more shooting) and armed security guards (more guns). IE, anything that won't affect *your* right to physically hold on to your personal arsenal.
Oh yeah, and the horrendous body count. None of you pro-gunners wanna talk about, acknowledge or even know about that, at all...!


So, your not accepting what we see as valid trumps our not accepting what you see as valid. Got it. Glad that was cleared up.

quote:

quote:

And, where do you think gangs get their guns? Tazzy quotes ½-million guns are stolen every year (which I believe I've seen on an FBI link, so I'm not questioning it). Do you think that this is the only way they get their guns? Do you think if there weren't guns to steal that they'd kick the dirt, say, "Aw, shucks!" and not source them another way? Please.

Stolen? From where or whom? Rhetorical, btw. Have you not yet grasped my meaning of "means and opportunity"? You know, enabled to steal or acquire (and thus use) when there's such a massive pool available! You're making my point for me, for chrissakes...! [:-]
Focus.


½-million guns are stolen per year. Are you going to make the claim, and stand behind it, that this is where gangs get their guns? Have any evidence to back that assertion?



jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/26/2013 10:07:13 PM)

quote:

"Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.
source.


You say a half million private guns are stolen each year please provide proof of that and not from the washington post.

quote:

Overall, about 1.4 million guns, or an annual average of 232,400, were stolen
during burglaries and other property crimes in the six-year period from
2005 through 2010. Of these stolen firearms, at least 80% (186,800) had
not been recovered at the time of the National Crime Victimization Survey
U.S. Department of Justice Office of Justice Programs Bureau of Justice Statistics


I guess the USDOJ trumps your figure. Or are you going to maintain that the Department of Justice is lying?



xssve -> RE: Guns (1/26/2013 10:53:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

All anti gun people want to do is take guns from people who legally bought and registered them, I have yet to hear one person come up with a way to deal with the hundreds of thousands if not millions of illegally acquired guns.
Well they get them from the pro gun people, where else?

Duh.



That is so much bullshit it is not even remotely funny.

So they're getting them from the gun control faction?

That, on the other hand, is an absolute fucking riot.



jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/26/2013 11:02:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

All anti gun people want to do is take guns from people who legally bought and registered them, I have yet to hear one person come up with a way to deal with the hundreds of thousands if not millions of illegally acquired guns.
Well they get them from the pro gun people, where else?

Duh.



That is so much bullshit it is not even remotely funny.

So they're getting them from the gun control faction?

That, on the other hand, is an absolute fucking riot.



According to the justice department, in the link I provided earlier, only 10 to 15 percent of the guns used in crime can be traced back as a stolen weapon.

Where the hell are the other 85 to 90 percent coming from?



Focus50 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 12:16:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
From what I can determine, most on here that support guns are decent and law-abiding citzens. But unfortunately, there are far too many throughout the US that aren't...

From what I can determine, most drivers are decent law-abiding citizens. But unfortunately, there are far too many throughout the U.S. that get boozed up and climb behind the wheel. Would you suggest we outlaw vehicles with engines over 100hp? Lower the speed limit to 30mph on our Interstates?
There's the problem: the "solutions" being touted are bullshit.
K.

There's your problem, right there....!
That in fact, you've been unable to determine that this is a topic about guns.
Focus.


Focus, your focus, needs more focus. Kirata is simply showing the absurdity of the claims by applying them to another situation.

I would have figured Aussies would have experience in that type of debate, too. At least enough to recognize it.



Lol, so you'd be surprised to learn Kirata and I have gun-related history?

Perhaps I should merely respect that his first post in this particular thread is nothing more than a drive-by snark?

I mean, there's an OP and it's got a poll and everything, and not even the most basic of good grace to contribute there, FIRST. Doesn't seem like he's a rookie to CM or discussion boards....

Tell ya what, I'll toss a bit of burleigh on his behalf - this is for him, k?

I think one basic and sensible reform in confronting America's rabid gun culture is to put an end to public availability of military style assault rifles, both full auto and semi auto.

Focus.



Focus50 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 1:45:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Anything to back that assertion up? No? Ah. Okay.

Well, there was that small matter of my own balls, remember? Stake's too high; you've got nothin' to counter - stats/links?



quote:

Firearms are raw power. Not everyone has the technique and training to take full advantage of that power. Any meathead can pick up a club, a bat, or a hammer. A sword or knife will take more experience, but they, too, can be deadly. Or, are you stating that some dead people are okay, but a lot of dead people isn't?

Geezus, pre-schoolers have killed while playing with guns. And I've been around too long to entertain these idiotic subject diversions....



quote:

So, your not accepting what we see as valid trumps our not accepting what you see as valid. Got it. Glad that was cleared up.

No, I'm accusing you (ie pro-gun lobby) of dodging the issue with window-dressing "solutions".



quote:

½-million guns are stolen per year. Are you going to make the claim, and stand behind it, that this is where gangs get their guns? Have any evidence to back that assertion?

I could care less where your gangs get their guns but since they are criminally inclined, stealing them seems a reasonable option....

Again, what *I'm* talking about is the proliferation of guns that enables such a vast number to be stolen. The Newport killer didn't use his own guns, right? Such is the general proliferation, he had the *OPPORTUNITY* to acquire them nonetheless, which became the *MEANS* to kill 28.

Imagine a thief living here setting out to break into a home to steal guns. Chances are he'd hafta break into every home in a residential block and still may not score. Now do it in the US - probably a coin toss from scoring first up...! That's our major difference in MEANS & OPPORTUNITY.

And no, I have no stats to back it up. Well, actually I do (re respective gun deaths - US & Oz). Australia 0.09 deaths per 100,000 population and US 3.7 per 100,000 - or 41 times higher per capita. The link is posted in the other gun thread (Errrm, "All things gun control go here" or words similar) but right now, I don't have time to go look.

Focus.



Ronnie1986 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 1:54:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
From what I can determine, most on here that support guns are decent and law-abiding citzens. But unfortunately, there are far too many throughout the US that aren't...

From what I can determine, most drivers are decent law-abiding citizens. But unfortunately, there are far too many throughout the U.S. that get boozed up and climb behind the wheel. Would you suggest we outlaw vehicles with engines over 100hp? Lower the speed limit to 30mph on our Interstates?
There's the problem: the "solutions" being touted are bullshit.
K.

There's your problem, right there....!
That in fact, you've been unable to determine that this is a topic about guns.
Focus.


Focus, your focus, needs more focus. Kirata is simply showing the absurdity of the claims by applying them to another situation.

I would have figured Aussies would have experience in that type of debate, too. At least enough to recognize it.

you would think.. considering aussies lost there guns and watched there crime rate increase...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7oJeQE82K8 this is a video that australians made about what happened after they lost there guns..



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 4:05:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, answer me this, when you take away all the legal guns in the states, HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO DEAL WITH THE ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS?



You're right. Let's just not have any safety measures at all, and make it as easy as possible for the criminals.


Do what our police do - raid the gangs and take their guns, knives and drugs too.
Or did you miss that in my post?

You all keep on about the criminals as if they are being left out.
They get treated the same as everyone else!




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 4:22:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

You know, with the popularity of gun violence in movies, and these statements that most Americans want to get rid of guns, how the fuck can these movies be making so much money?


Who is saying that the Americans want to get rid of guns??
It's quite the contrary!
Everyone else is saying that - the Americans are digging their heels in and want to keep them.

Ok...
Explain to me how everyone else around the world watches these same movies and yet only in the US is the gun crime so high by at least a whole order of magnitude and more?

If every country had the proportionally equal amount of idiots, nutters and mental cases, can you explain how the only country in the world that encourages gun ownership also has the highest gun crime rate per capita??

That is pretty good anecdotal evidence that either the Americans have at least 20 times more idiots, nutters and mental cases than anyone else or that the gun ownership is the causal effect of the killings.
Whichever side of that coin you look at, it's pretty damned ugly and needs to be taken out of circulation!

Whichever way you slice the cake, it's the prolification of gun ownership in the US that generates the very problem with guns that all but the Americans can see.

I did notice that there was an anti-gun demonstration in DC yesterday but I doubt any of the pro-gun supporters took any notice.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 4:24:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baroana


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Okay, answer me this, when you take away all the legal guns in the states, HOW THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO DEAL WITH THE ILLEGALLY OWNED GUNS?



You're right. Let's just not have any safety measures at all, and make it as easy as possible for the criminals.



I am not saying we should have no regulations, but did you read the stuff I posted about how criminals get their guns? Not to mention those people who illegally bring weapons into the US.

All anti gun people want to do is take guns from people who legally bought and registered them, I have yet to hear one person come up with a way to deal with the hundreds of thousands if not millions of illegally acquired guns.


I have and so has focus - but you aren't listening.



LadyPact -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 7:52:08 AM)

Please understand that I generally use fast reply. This is not directed at the most recent poster specifically.

At 200+ posts on this thread, (and My admission that I haven't read every single post) I'm not really seeing much of it that is addressing illegal gun trafficking. Yes, the risks associated with that particular type of crime are pretty high, but it's not stopping anybody now and tighter gun controls are only going to make it more lucrative. Not to sound snarky, but I'm thinking that's an easier problem to control when the country is surrounded by water. Here? Not so much. It's not as easy as saying go where the gangs are and remove the guns. There's a lot more territory to cover when we're talking a land mass of one state being greater than of some entire countries. How do people think all of those firearms get to New York or LA?



PeonForHer -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 9:44:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact. Not to sound snarky, but I'm thinking that's an easier problem to control when the country is surrounded by water. Here? Not so much.


Hmmm. You could have a point, though I'd suspect that the illegal gun ownership would be an urban rather than a rural phenomenon, and many of those large expanses of states wouldn't matter greatly. Just as in Australia, no doubt.

What about the various police forces involved consulting with the US military? The latter's had some experience of locating and eliminating armed groups in other parts of the world. Just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head.



Focus50 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 1:01:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Please understand that I generally use fast reply. This is not directed at the most recent poster specifically.

At 200+ posts on this thread, (and My admission that I haven't read every single post) I'm not really seeing much of it that is addressing illegal gun trafficking. Yes, the risks associated with that particular type of crime are pretty high, but it's not stopping anybody now and tighter gun controls are only going to make it more lucrative.

This is more a typical pro-gun type argument or tactic. You pick one small and subjective instance where gun controls "might" work (illegal gun trafficking), trash the idea with anecdotal speculation and without ever actually trialling it, then present it as proof that gun controls per se' won't work at all in the US (passive controls like classes and background checks etc excepted, natch).

<and insert another jlf1961 cartoon here to drive the point home>

Nothing personal at you LP. As you admit, you haven't been following the thread's course.


quote:

Not to sound snarky, but I'm thinking that's an easier problem to control when the country is surrounded by water. Here? Not so much. It's not as easy as saying go where the gangs are and remove the guns. There's a lot more territory to cover when we're talking a land mass of one state being greater than of some entire countries. How do people think all of those firearms get to New York or LA?

Well you say that but Oz has quite a bit more coastline to secure than mainland USA and nowhere near the population to fund or staff the assorted border protection agencies necessary to do it.

So yeah, true that we don't share a land border with another soverign nation but we have nothing like the resources the US can and does throw at securing your borders. For all the flak about what does get smuggled into your country, I'd venture it's single digit percentage to what gets detected - but the latter is generally not so newsworthy.

Focus.



LadyPact -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 1:48:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
This is more a typical pro-gun type argument or tactic. You pick one small and subjective instance where gun controls "might" work (illegal gun trafficking), trash the idea with anecdotal speculation and without ever actually trialling it, then present it as proof that gun controls per se' won't work at all in the US (passive controls like classes and background checks etc excepted, natch).

<and insert another jlf1961 cartoon here to drive the point home>

Nothing personal at you LP. As you admit, you haven't been following the thread's course.
I'm not taking it personally. I'm more pointing out something that we have to work on. I'm not trashing the idea at all. I think you'll find that a lot of what are being called "pro-gun" people are vehemently against the illegal guns being out there. It's rather similar to the stance on background checks and other discussion points. The stuff that's at least supposed to make it better, for lack of a better word, isn't effective now.

For example, in several of your posts, you've mentioned domestic/dv situations. Well, the laws say that any person convicted of such can not own/possess a firearm. (Literally, a domestic violence conviction is a one way ticket out of the military.) We're not doing all that good in that area. The person convicted has to surrender their firearms if mandated by the court. Lots of them slip through though.




quote:

Well you say that but Oz has quite a bit more coastline to secure than mainland USA and nowhere near the population to fund or staff the assorted border protection agencies necessary to do it.

So yeah, true that we don't share a land border with another soverign nation but we have nothing like the resources the US can and does throw at securing your borders. For all the flak about what does get smuggled into your country, I'd venture it's single digit percentage to what gets detected - but the latter is generally not so newsworthy.

Focus.

I really hate going here because I don't want to turn the thread into something else. We can't stop *people* from illegally crossing the border and those are just folks determined to get themselves across. We can't do it with immigrants, we can't do it with drugs, and we can't do it about guns. It's been rather pitiful on all three counts.




tazzygirl -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 2:11:15 PM)

I have never negated the problem of guns smuggled into the US. However, it is strange that almost 70% of those smuggled into the US originated IN the US.

Am I the only one who sees that as a "hmmm" moment?



jlf1961 -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 2:22:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have never negated the problem of guns smuggled into the US. However, it is strange that almost 70% of those smuggled into the US originated IN the US.

Am I the only one who sees that as a "hmmm" moment?



Firearms are exported, and then some bright individual brings em back in. Not that it makes sense.



papassion -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 2:22:39 PM)


The liberals are fine with the police now after the school shooting, but in general, Liberals don't like the police. They go on in forums how the police are power hungry individules, are brutal, sadistic, etc, etc. Then their ACLU ties the police hands with Miranda rights and all kids of legal bullshit to make it safer and easier for a crook to avoid prosocution.

If I remember correctly, right before the Virginia Tech shootings, the legislature ruled that police have no right to access a person's mental health records. So how can you do a useful backround check? I was talking with a mental health professional who had a part time job in a sporting goods store. One of his clients came in to buy a gun. He said if he said anything to the store manager about this guy's mental issues, , he could be sued! With "progressive" groups making sure no one should be "embarressed" by their mental or criminal histories, that allow them to be "erased" after a short time, what the hell good are backround checks? Progressives set up the conditions that allow a nut to buy a gun then scream "how did he get the gun?!!!"



tazzygirl -> RE: Guns (1/27/2013 2:23:02 PM)

Smuggled out of the US to return to the US. The source doesnt change.



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