RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic?

RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (Full Version)

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TAFKAA -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 12:50:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: TAFKAA quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne We need for you to explain the difference because someone apparently cant count very well, that and another huge problem is that according to your standards that makes the proprietors of auschwitz antisemite because now there is a 2.5 million difference from the 6 million. They changed the official count somehow just wiped out 2.5 million people So Jeff what makes me an antisemite instead of a news reporter that is reporting interesting "stuff". How is a Japanese-Jew a semite? These are all very simple questions why have you not answered any of them? Oh, I can explain that dude. In fact Wikipedia is readily able to explain it to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp#Death_toll In particular, I note this bit: After the collapse of the Communist government in 1989, the plaque at Auschwitz State Museum was removed and the official death toll given as 1.1 million. Holocaust deniers have attempted to use this change as propaganda, in the words of the Nizkor Project: Deniers often use the 'Four Million Variant' as a stepping stone to leap from an apparent contradiction to the idea that the Holocaust was a hoax, again perpetrated by a conspiracy. They hope to discredit historians by making them seem inconsistent. If they can't keep their numbers straight, their reasoning goes, how can we say that their evidence for the Holocaust is credible? One must wonder which historians they speak of, as most have been remarkably consistent in their estimates of a million or so dead... Few (if any) historians ever believed the Museum's four million figure, having arrived at their own estimates independently. The museum's inflated figures were never part of the estimated five to six million Jews killed in the Holocaust, so there is no need to revise this figure. The simplest explanation is that - like Holocaust Deniers - communist governments have a very tenuous relationship with the truth and Poland's post-war government was distinctly communist. It's not so much that you're an anti-Semite dude - you're just an apologist for Islamic aggression. And you think attacking the Holocaust is attacking the character of the Jewish people - and by extension the Israelis - instead of just being the ridiculous sideshow that it is. quote: How did you come to that conclusion again? What conclusion? That the multiple independent historical estimates are more accurate than a bunch of nonsense from Holocaust Denial conspiracy theorists? I came to that conclusion through the use of logic and reason. Try it some time, I guarantee you'll be shocked by the results. quote: So then all those tourists were lied to huh? Isnt that propaganda? Why, yes I do believe that - like Arab governments and Nazis - other regimes - particularly communist governments like Poland's post-war government - also use propaganda. What's your point? quote: All the "Denier" stuff so when a historian comes along and disputes the present numbers regardless of his credibility he is thought of as a DENIER! If he does so without evidence, then yes he is. And given the 1.1 million figure has been consistently represented since the war, focusing upon the plaque isn't a historical dispute, it's a fraudulent attempt to manufacture contrary evidence where none exists. I also note that you keep editing your original post after someone has responded to you. This is a clear attempt to pretend that your opponent has failed to respond to specific points you've made. This is now twice you've re-edited your original post because I've responded and pointed out your idiocy. If you keep doing this, you merely confirm my contention that you've got no evidence to present and rely upon lies and deception. OP, you're wasting your time with this guy. He's either an Arab apologist or a griefer. He has no actual argument to make, he's just looking for a bite because his life is empty and trolling people is the only joy he has. Put him on hide and ignore him. By responding to his nonsense you're feeding him.

thezeppo -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 1:17:44 AM)
Absolutely. I tried to talk to him about the Wannsee conference and he shut up pretty quickly. Well came over here and started again anyway. He doesn't even know most of the things a practiced holocaust denier (or doubter, whatever he wants to call himself) would say. Holocaust denial is not always antisemitic, often it can be an unintended effect of theory, such as in Postructuralism. There is a very polemical book by Deborah Lipstadt called denying the holocaust, which give an overview of holocaust denial, where it originates and the different forms it takes. Probably would be worth a read. Holocaust denial based on intellectual dishonesty is antisemitic though, and holocaust doubting based on swimming pools is frankly just bizzarre

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 1:42:10 AM)
as I have posted on the previous page that all the tourists have been misled to believe it was 4 million at auschwitz/berk alone. You impasse right past that. and stand on a soap box making all sorts of accusations based on a wiki link that claims that its the "deniers" are passing on propaganda when in fact not providing any references yourself! Where is the evidence of "deniers" been established in your link? I cannot find it? How destructive is that if only the historians know about these numbers yet 6 million stands as Jeff has said many times? nice try at reversing my meaning to fit your conclusion, the plaque was posted as evidence of fraud not to claim an official number. I was impressed with your first post how this evolved into the completely out of context "presumptuous" rant labeling anyone using the sign that by your own admission is fraud and that I am manufacturing evidence where none exists has questionable credibility. a bit old but very interesting [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/RedCross1paage_1.jpg[/image] More erroneous conclusions from you. Apparently you failed to notice that I edit literally EVERY POST that I make I do not pay attention if you posted or not, I simply do not care. I go in and make corrections for typos and what not. Sorry about that. well if my last post caused you so much frustration that you felt the necessity to violate the tos to the tune of 4 times I imagine this one wont make it any better. I really was getting interested until that last post with that long list of erroneous pejorative presumptions that were thrown my way. Look up fraud, malfeasance, and a host of other words that would apply to that plaque. Denier is not one of them. However does misinformation like that plaque displays, when people find out the real number is to the tune of 25% after thre tax payers have been paying exrta taxes for reparations likely to cause anti-semitism? Especially since (and I have not checked in a while so feel free to correct me if I am wrong), especialy since the 6 million number has been used and I believe is still being used 75 years after the war to compute those reparations. Would that cause anti-semitism in and of itself? BTW why did you lable me a holocaust denier when I neither deny nor affirm it? Do you believe I should be silenced to take opposition to erroneous trash such as that sign that is "presumed" to be fact when by your own admission it is not? How does that make me a denier and by what stretch of the imagination did yo conclude I manufacturered evidence when it is a fact that the sign was there hence establishing a prima facia slam dunk case for fraud. How did you stack that deck?

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 2:01:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo Absolutely. I tried to talk to him about the Wannsee conference and he shut up pretty quickly. Well came over here and started again anyway. He doesn't even know most of the things a practiced holocaust denier (or doubter, whatever he wants to call himself) would say. Holocaust denial is not always antisemitic, often it can be an unintended effect of theory, such as in Postructuralism. There is a very polemical book by Deborah Lipstadt called denying the holocaust, which give an overview of holocaust denial, where it originates and the different forms it takes. Probably would be worth a read. Holocaust denial based on intellectual dishonesty is antisemitic though, and holocaust doubting based on swimming pools is frankly just bizzarre Likewise is holocaust affirmation, need I bring up that fraudulent sign again? nah nothing like that. You wanted to slip out of anything inconvenient to your position and refused to address my points. Well guess what. I simply ignored it until you addressed mine. Pretending we left the swimming pool topic when in fact it was never concluded. You simply dodged it and jumped to wanasee. So you need to address camp entertainment, the pool, canteena, theater, orchestra, plays They wont let me post gifs of the actual videos but here are stills; [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed001.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed002.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed003.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed005.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed007.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed014.jpg[/image] [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/holycausts/Hitlersholidaycampexposed016.jpg[/image] remember all this was listed by those survivors depositions. What does that mean when a witness testimony matches the material evidence? when you address that I will be happy to get into wanasee with you. Now after wading through those capricious red herrings, tell me, would finding out that they had entertainment at the camps like any other city tend to cause anti-semitism? Again taking into consideration tax payers are footing the bill?

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 2:35:32 AM)
oh and both you guys take that a step further and lets talk about fraud. Tafka admitted the sign was fraud and the historians knew all along. Where is the fraud line before people examining the record simply start adding things up and say "this is bullshit, thats bullshit then conclude therefore so is the holocaust"? Does a line exist? If so how much contrary evidence can we see before we start to question the information that has been fed to us by trusted institutions? Maybe the pool and all that entertainment even the whore house is just a conspiracy? Is that the point america should simply pass a law like germany and france and even canada and force people to believe?[image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/whip-900.gif[/image] This topic brings up interesting avenues to explore for the future doesnt it? Jeff I think posted his original thread because it seemed as if america is turning against isreal. Could it be maybe americans are past that point already? Now what? [image]http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o296/nine_one_one/stuff/Bart_Simpson.png[/image]

thezeppo -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 3:04:56 AM)
Are these the same depositions as in your video? I didn't realise Steven Spielberg researched films by deposition. There is no point debating on your terms, I have enough history to know that its possible to prove that there isn't one catch-all experience of concentration camps. What you are doing is intellectually dishonest though, in that you are ignoring an overwhelming amount of evidence against your position in favour of a "deposition" involving six people and some pictures. You want to argue on your specific terms because that way you can score small victories. I have pointed out the inconsistency in what constitutes a "fact" for your side of the debate compared to mine. Everyone can see the way in which you make your points, so why would I argue only on your terms? You have presented your swimming pool evidence. I have not argued against it other than to point out that your correlating sources wouldn't be accepted in a high school essay. Do I have to fully agree with every little point you are going to make before you move on? I have experience of holocaust [doubt], in fact I wrote 6000 words on the subject not so long ago. So far you haven't brought anything fresh, innovative or indeed at all to the table. You can have pictures of swimming pools if you want them, and you can have the six "witnesses" in that "deposition". That means you are casting doubt on the holocaust based on what six people said in a badly edited interview, and you have pictures of swimming pools. You have Barbara Cherish, who by the way has conducted many interviews in which she presents a rather more pessimistic assessment of her fathers role in the camps. This one is on you, this is your argument: Why do you think only six people were willing to tell the 'truth' while so many others would not? I have the Wannsee Conference, which shows that the Final Solution was planned in advance as well as being specifically anti-Jewish. It debunks the whole "political criminals" argument which you have made at some stage. I have Eichmann's testimony, in which he says he was told by Heydrich in 1939 that the Fuhrer had authorised "the physical destruction of the Jews". I have Hitler's comments in Mein Kampf. I have the testimonies of more than six people. Do you see the difference? If you are truly advocating a position then the point is to provide as clear and coherent an argument as possible and back it up with evidence. You aren't ignoring me because I am not responding to your questions, you are ignoring me because you know I'm going to point out your intellectual dishonesty every step of the way. You cast doubt on the holocaust because you argue it hasn't been proven, but you have no alternative. Why don't you tell us why you think so many people are wrong and you are right? If the holocaust didn't happen then what did?

Kirata -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 3:52:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo If the holocaust didn't happen then what did? An enormous amount of deeply repugnant shit, for sure. But merely questioning the accepted details is not "anti-Semitism". And frankly, in my opinion the attempt to shut people up who disagree on those details is in itself repugnant. K.

thezeppo -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 4:05:54 AM)
Trying to shut him up? I couldn't be trying any harder to get him to actually make a point that isn't about swimming pools. I've even presented evidence on his behalf on the other thread because he is so reluctant to do it. What you are quoting is a genuine question from me to him, because frankly, in 5 pages of discussion he hasn't said anything worth trying to debate. When I first noticed him I asked for a hypothesis with supporting evidence. All I have had are swimming pools. Just in case I'm not making myself clear; RealOne Please do present your hypothesis, and your supporting evidence. I would love to see it

thishereboi -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 4:28:55 AM)
I think it is. I can't understand how someone can totally ignore history like that. It reminds me of the idiots who claim we never went to the moon or more recently that the school shooting never happened. My grandfather was there when they liberated the camps and the things he saw were sickening. I also took care of an elderly lady who had a number tattoo. Her and her sister were captured as kids. She was sent to a work camp. Her sister who was crippled and unable to work was killed. I just can't imagine living throught that and to have some fuckhead say it never happened would just make it that much worse.

Politesub53 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 4:38:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo If the holocaust didn't happen then what did? An enormous amount of deeply repugnant shit, for sure. But merely questioning the accepted details is not "anti-Semitism". And frankly, in my opinion the attempt to shut people up who disagree on those details is in itself repugnant. K. So you think constantly spouting spurious claims about the Holocast over several years, as well as his tag line regards his love of Palestinians, means he is "merely questioning" None so blind as those that cannot see.

thishereboi -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 4:39:37 AM)
While I agree it can be repulsive to read that kind of bullshit on here, I think it can actually be helpful. If poster A had all the posts removed poster B might think he had something usefull to add to a discussion. With poster A's BS left intact it is fairly easy to see where their head is at and you can safely discount anything they say after that. Then when you see their name in a thread, you can simply scroll past the post and ignore them. You don't have to waste time clicking their links or reading paragraph after paragraph of rambling. That gives you more time to read the posts from the ones who actually have something important to say.

kalikshama -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 5:11:26 AM)
Yes, I don't have anyone on Hide but I certainly have some on Fast Scroll.

Kirata -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 5:16:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata merely questioning the accepted details is not "anti-Semitism" So you think constantly spouting spurious claims about the Holocast over several years, as well as his tag line regards his love of Palestinians, means he is "merely questioning" What I think is what I said. What you think is what you said. Try to keep the two separate. K.

Owner59 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 5:53:33 AM)
Yes.

Owner59 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 5:59:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo If the holocaust didn't happen then what did? An enormous amount of deeply repugnant shit, for sure. But merely questioning the accepted details is not "anti-Semitism". And frankly, in my opinion the attempt to shut people up who disagree on those details is in itself repugnant. K. What a bunch of cumbaya bullshit..... If that`s YOUR definition of repugnant.....count me in as repugnant.

Powergamz1 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 6:46:52 AM)
"Never happened" is merely disagreeing on the details? Keep your sense of repugnance where it belongs. quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: thezeppo If the holocaust didn't happen then what did? An enormous amount of deeply repugnant shit, for sure. But merely questioning the accepted details is not "anti-Semitism". And frankly, in my opinion the attempt to shut people up who disagree on those details is in itself repugnant. K.

cordeliasub -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 6:46:53 AM)
quote: Instead allow it to empower you with knowledge about the person. This pretty much sums it up for me. Arguing that something in history that did happen happened is a waste of time. Someone who vehemently denies it has told me pretty much everything about themselves that I need to know.

LizDeluxe -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 6:56:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 The truth of the matter is that by denying the Holocaust, you are basically calling Jews liars, denying their history. Collarme has decided that holocaust denial is not antisemitic, I think it is, what is your opinions? Should the TOS reflect the given world view on the subject? That doesn't necessarily make you antisemitic. If someone disagrees with the black community on some issue - let's say affirmative action - does that automatically make them racist? If you have issues with US border control do you suddenly hate Mexicans? If you are opposed to the added penalties sought for hate crimes are you now anti LGBT? All of those groups would say you are (usually as a smokescreen to cloud the issue) but that is not necessarily the case.

Powergamz1 -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 7:03:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VideoAdminAlpha My statement was what constituted an anti-semiticism remark. Addressing historical events is not disparaging. Addressing what your opinion is of the race or religion is in a disparaging manner does constitute anti semiticism. <SNIP> And this still keeps evading the question that has been asked more than once.... When someone posts Holocaust denier rhetoric using the same 'never happened' memes from StormFront or David Irving... Is it a TOS violation to call those posts Holocaust denial? When someone uses David Duke's rhetoric about black people never contributing anything to society, or about how hard white men are oppressed today, is it a TOS violation to call their posts white supremacist propaganda?

Real0ne -> RE: is holacaust denial antisemitic? (1/25/2013 8:47:27 AM)
the problem as I see it is that you are trying to put a one shoe fits all label on it. If we wanted to stretch our imaginations we could say red is close enough to be called green because they are both colors. Not so much as one of my points have been properly addressed from any poster out here. Starting with something very very simple like is a Japanese-Jew a "semite". How hard can that be?

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