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JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 10:03:07 AM   
vincentML


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claims that the continuation of Section Five of the Voting Rights Act perpetuates a "racial entitlement" SOURCE And the only reason Congress renewed the Law in 2006 was because congress peeps were entrapped by political correctness and afraid to cast a NO vote. Therefore, SCOTUS should step in and decide if the issue of racial discrimination at the polls has been settled.

Do you agree or disagree? Why?
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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 11:47:28 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Do you agree or disagree? Why?

Mother Jones lays out the groundwork for the question as follows...

First, under the principle of federalism, states have an interest in making and administering their own laws without getting prior permission from the federal government. Second, under the Fifteenth Amendment, the federal government has an interest in making sure that states don't abridge the right to vote based on race or skin color. When the Supreme Court upheld the VRA in South Carolina v. Katzenbach, it explicitly noted that preclearance tested the boundaries of federal authority:
    This may have been an uncommon exercise of congressional power, as South Carolina contends, but the Court has recognized that exceptional conditions can justify legislative measures not otherwise appropriate.... Congress knew that some of the States covered by the Act had resorted to the extraordinary stratagem of contriving new rules of various kinds for the sole purpose of perpetuating voting discrimination in the face of adverse federal court decrees. Congress had reason to suppose that these States might try similar maneuvers in the future in order to evade the remedies for voting discrimination contained in the Act itself. Under the compulsion of these unique circumstances, Congress responded in a permissibly decisive manner.
Is it still the case that there exists "reason to suppose that these States might try similar maneuvers in the future"? Chief Justice Roberts went straight to the point by asking the Obama administration’s lawyer, "Is it the government’s submission that the citizens in the South are more racist than the citizens in the North?" Justice Alito returned to the issue by asking, "Why shouldn’t it apply everywhere in the country?"

The Obama administration's responses were not reported. But we may have been given a clue to at least part of what's at issue by Brian Stevenson, executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative.

"Mass incarceration," he argues, "has radically changed society." He speaks of urban communities, like Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Washington, where 50 percent of young black men are in prison, on parole or probation and where the disenfranchisement of convicted felons "has horrific implications for the political aspirations of people of colour." ~Global Grind

If that's an example of the kind of racism (or "racism") at issue here, then part of the question is whether or not a State, any State, should have the right to bar convicted felons from voting. That's a question with much broader reach, and one which gives credence to a claim that Section 5 of the Voter Rights Act is unfair, because it applies only to eight States, plus parts of two others and some scattered counties.

According to Procon.org, there are 12 states that permanently bar convicted felons from voting; 19 that only restore the right after the individual is released from incarceration, parole, or probation; 4 additional states that restore the right after the individual is released from incarceration or parole (they don't count probation); 13 atates that restore the right after the individual is released from incarceration (they don't count parole or probation); and only 4 states that allow convicts to vote by absentee ballot while incarcerated.

Congress could amend the Act so that it applies equally to all States. But as the Supreme Court recognized in South Carolina v. Katzenbach, that would require the existence of exceptional conditions in order to be upheld. Whether or not those conditions may be said to exist, it seems clear to me that at least as the law is currently written it should not be allowed to stand.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/2/2013 12:28:41 PM >

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 2:39:51 PM   
vincentML


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I thank you for a very well reasoned reply. Let me make a few comments.

The Fifteenth Amendment gives Congress the Authority, not the "interest" as you say, to protect against any "device" which the states may use to deny or abridge the vote to any individual for reasons of race or color.

Your argument from banning felons is a good one on its face but it is not an issue in the current case.

States or districts within a state can bail out of preclearence by showing ten years of acceptable voting procedures, and some districts have.

It is not only southern states as Chief Justice Roberts would have us believe. Preclearance applies currently to Alaska, some counties in California, as well as three very large counties that make up the bulk of NYC: the Bronx, Kings County [Brooklyn] and Manhatten. SOURCE

Explicitly granting this power of enforcement to the Congress in the Consitution makes it an enumerated power, imo, and takes it out of the pervue of the Tenth Amendment.

I don't understand how SCOTUS can claim that an Act written by Congress under the authority granted by the Fifteenth Amendment can be unconstitutional, unless the Act violates another Amendment specifically. I think it was Justice Kagen who asked the Appelant's attorney: "Are you giving the court the power to determine when racial discrimination has ended?"

Finally, how is protecting the right to vote a racial entitlement?





< Message edited by vincentML -- 3/2/2013 3:09:30 PM >

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 2:53:16 PM   
calamitysandra


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I am going with the explanation Rachel Maddow put forth at The Daily Show. He is a troll.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 3:24:21 PM   
Kirata


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Thank you for your clarifications. However, I continue to think that Section 5 of the law was poorly conceived and should never have been upheld in the first place. In my view, laws passed by Congress should apply to all the States equally.

K.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 4:39:00 PM   
vincentML


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I respect your view.
I'm not sure I agree with it, however.
I will have to give it some thought.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 7:16:01 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I thank you for a very well reasoned reply. Let me make a few comments.

The Fifteenth Amendment gives Congress the Authority, not the "interest" as you say, to protect against any "device" which the states may use to deny or abridge the vote to any individual for reasons of race or color.

Your argument from banning felons is a good one on its face but it is not an issue in the current case.

States or districts within a state can bail out of preclearence by showing ten years of acceptable voting procedures, and some districts have.

It is not only southern states as Chief Justice Roberts would have us believe. Preclearance applies currently to Alaska, some counties in California, as well as three very large counties that make up the bulk of NYC: the Bronx, Kings County [Brooklyn] and Manhatten. SOURCE

Explicitly granting this power of enforcement to the Congress in the Consitution makes it an enumerated power, imo, and takes it out of the pervue of the Tenth Amendment.

I don't understand how SCOTUS can claim that an Act written by Congress under the authority granted by the Fifteenth Amendment can be unconstitutional, unless the Act violates another Amendment specifically. I think it was Justice Kagen who asked the Appelant's attorney: "Are you giving the court the power to determine when racial discrimination has ended?"

Finally, how is protecting the right to vote a racial entitlement?







no matter how many laws are made its meaningless until it hits the courts.

They pass some shit law, sooner or later someone figgers out something is wrong and they got screwed by the state and has a dimwit attorney botch the case, lack of funds whatever, it becomes precedence and they forever quote it.

Now that article was nothing more than someones opinion so it did not tell me much that I can dig my teeth into however the only people who should not allowed to vote in a franchise system are those who do not belong to that system otherwise someone is being prejudiced by the so called law.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 9:11:14 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Thank you for your clarifications. However, I continue to think that Section 5 of the law was poorly conceived and should never have been upheld in the first place. In my view, laws passed by Congress should apply to all the States equally.

K.


There may be some other circumstance where Congress passed a Law that distinguished amongst the states but I cannot think of any. So, basically your view is correct.

Section 5 would be poorly conceived except for the history that led to the necessity of the Law. As recent (in my lifetime) as 1966 Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, and Virginia had poll taxes designed to discriminate against Blacks. Literacy tests were also used.
SOURCE

"The Justice Department has used the preclearance requirement, also known as Section 5, to object to more than 2,400 state and local voting changes since 1982. Just last year, the administration invoked Section 5 in stopping Republican- backed voter-identification laws in Texas and South Carolina from going into effect." SOURCE

Voter discrimination seems to be with us still. The Fifteenth Amendment was one of the Reconstruction Amendments, as you probably know. The Fifteenth was enacted in 1870. Before the end of the Century the southern states responded with Jim Crow Laws seeking to suppress Blacks and they were quite successful. There were seperate toilets, water fountains, restaurants and schools for Blacks throughout the southland. Apparently the Voting Rights Act passed in 1965 and the Equal Rights Act were meant to stamp out the last vestiges of Jim Crow, imo. I don't want to get into a history lesson here. I imagine you are aware of the Racial history of the 1950s and 1960s.

We are still fighting the Civil War. I think the current Court hearing is part of an attempt to nullify Civil Rights successes. For that reason I can't go with your view in this one instance. It is special, I think.



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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 9:13:18 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Now that article was nothing more than someones opinion so it did not tell me much that I can dig my teeth into however the only people who should not allowed to vote in a franchise system are those who do not belong to that system otherwise someone is being prejudiced by the so called law.

I don't know which article you mean but let google be your friend.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 9:20:36 PM   
DomKen


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FR

The fact is any county that wishes to get out from under section 5 of the Act can do so by not violating voting rights for 10 years. Shelby County, the plaintiff in this case, violated the VRA by doing redistricting a city commision boundaries to unseat that city's only black councilman.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/2/2013 11:03:34 PM   
SadistDave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

The fact is any county that wishes to get out from under section 5 of the Act can do so by not violating voting rights for 10 years. Shelby County, the plaintiff in this case, violated the VRA by doing redistricting a city commision boundaries to unseat that city's only black councilman.


Citation? I'm not being a dick, but I would like to see the articles you base this opinion of yours on purely to understand it. Less confusion that way.

Unless redistricting violates the VRA then your argument is invalid, as redistricting does not immediately unseat an elected official. It may make it harder to win reelection, but that is not inherently racist. Redistricting is a political tool that is recognised as such all around the country. So unless there is actual evidence (not just wild accusation but actual evidence like an official charge that someone violated the VRA) that the redistricting was racially motivated then it sounds an awful lot like the usual political sour grapes...

-SD-

< Message edited by SadistDave -- 3/2/2013 11:10:27 PM >


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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 5:22:36 AM   
muhly22222


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quote:

Voter discrimination seems to be with us still. The Fifteenth Amendment was one of the Reconstruction Amendments, as you probably know. The Fifteenth was enacted in 1870. Before the end of the Century the southern states responded with Jim Crow Laws seeking to suppress Blacks and they were quite successful. There were seperate toilets, water fountains, restaurants and schools for Blacks throughout the southland. Apparently the Voting Rights Act passed in 1965 and the Equal Rights Act were meant to stamp out the last vestiges of Jim Crow, imo. I don't want to get into a history lesson here. I imagine you are aware of the Racial history of the 1950s and 1960s.

We are still fighting the Civil War. I think the current Court hearing is part of an attempt to nullify Civil Rights successes. For that reason I can't go with your view in this one instance. It is special, I think.




Is there still racism in the states subject to the VRA? Yes, and there probably always will be, unfortunately. But racism is not as pervasive and systemic as it once was.

African-Americans now have access to courts to enforce Constitutional voting rights, they have shown an ability to get elected and hold their seats. We're not still fighting the Civil War, that's done. There are some shitheads around the country who think they still have a chance to prevail in the Civil War, but they don't.

The exceptional circumstance that justified a law that applied to some states and not to others has passed. That exceptional circumstance wasn't the incidence of individual racism, it was the pervasiveness of systemic racism.

Disregarding the argument for whether the law should be overturned for a moment, I do think that this is one law that would never fail to be renewed for political reasons. Anybody who voted against it would be torn apart for turning their backs on African-Americans, for supporting racism.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 5:29:15 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

FR

The fact is any county that wishes to get out from under section 5 of the Act can do so by not violating voting rights for 10 years. Shelby County, the plaintiff in this case, violated the VRA by doing redistricting a city commision boundaries to unseat that city's only black councilman.


Citation? I'm not being a dick, but I would like to see the articles you base this opinion of yours on purely to understand it. Less confusion that way.

Unless redistricting violates the VRA then your argument is invalid, as redistricting does not immediately unseat an elected official. It may make it harder to win reelection, but that is not inherently racist. Redistricting is a political tool that is recognised as such all around the country. So unless there is actual evidence (not just wild accusation but actual evidence like an official charge that someone violated the VRA) that the redistricting was racially motivated then it sounds an awful lot like the usual political sour grapes...

-SD-

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-15/racist-alabama-legacy-shadows-high-court-on-voting-rights.html
It was so bad the W DoJ brought a lawsuit against the county over it.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 6:01:55 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

claims that the continuation of Section Five of the Voting Rights Act perpetuates a "racial entitlement" SOURCE And the only reason Congress renewed the Law in 2006 was because congress peeps were entrapped by political correctness and afraid to cast a NO vote. Therefore, SCOTUS should step in and decide if the issue of racial discrimination at the polls has been settled.

Do you agree or disagree? Why?

One can dress it up how anyway one wishes...that simple statement confirms that Scalia is a racist. The very concept of voting rights for those legally competent, is that they are to be inviolable. Yet for Scalia to protect that right for those who for centuries were denied it...reeks of racism.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 6:15:53 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

quote:

Voter discrimination seems to be with us still. The Fifteenth Amendment was one of the Reconstruction Amendments, as you probably know. The Fifteenth was enacted in 1870. Before the end of the Century the southern states responded with Jim Crow Laws seeking to suppress Blacks and they were quite successful. There were seperate toilets, water fountains, restaurants and schools for Blacks throughout the southland. Apparently the Voting Rights Act passed in 1965 and the Equal Rights Act were meant to stamp out the last vestiges of Jim Crow, imo. I don't want to get into a history lesson here. I imagine you are aware of the Racial history of the 1950s and 1960s.

We are still fighting the Civil War. I think the current Court hearing is part of an attempt to nullify Civil Rights successes. For that reason I can't go with your view in this one instance. It is special, I think.




Is there still racism in the states subject to the VRA? Yes, and there probably always will be, unfortunately. But racism is not as pervasive and systemic as it once was.

African-Americans now have access to courts to enforce Constitutional voting rights, they have shown an ability to get elected and hold their seats. We're not still fighting the Civil War, that's done. There are some shitheads around the country who think they still have a chance to prevail in the Civil War, but they don't.

The exceptional circumstance that justified a law that applied to some states and not to others has passed. That exceptional circumstance wasn't the incidence of individual racism, it was the pervasiveness of systemic racism.

Disregarding the argument for whether the law should be overturned for a moment, I do think that this is one law that would never fail to be renewed for political reasons. Anybody who voted against it would be torn apart for turning their backs on African-Americans, for supporting racism.

The very notion of a state passing these extra-ordinary voter ID etc laws etc. is an attempt to return to just what you speak of here...systematic racism in the form of now re-conditioning those voting rights.

What people have at their disposal, is not the courts but the influence over law. That has been demonstrated in and produced the creation of the VRA. That it has been renewed and 98-0 well. Now it's a done deal, now those states guilty for a century after the war seek to return to a subtle form of a violation or a modification of those rights. But congress has acted and the courts have no right to declare these laws unconstitutional.

The idea of codifying rights is to protect them, not just offer remedy in the courts as a last and very expensive resort...to protect them.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 7:06:12 AM   
nighthawk3569


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222








quote:

Is there still racism in the states subject to the VRA? Yes, and there probably always will be, unfortunately. But racism is not as pervasive and systemic as it once was.


There's racism, of one sort or another, in EVERY state!

'hawk


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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 7:08:52 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

that simple statement confirms that Scalia is a racist.

I think that some people are too willing to shoot first, and not even bother asking questions later. Do you happen to know what he's referring to by "racial entitlements"? I sure didn't, and I'm not very confident that you do either.

That's the -- that's the concern that those of us who -- who have some questions about this statute have. It's -- it's a concern that this is not the kind of a question you can leave to Congress. There are certain districts in the House that are black districts by law just about now.

Does he mean that the law has been used to engineer a species of "reverse gerrymandering"? Is he drawing a connection to "affirmative action" programs? I'm going to link to the transcript for anyone who might want to debate the actual arguments.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/12-96.pdf

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/3/2013 7:16:40 AM >

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 7:51:59 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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On one hand, I like the "idea" that we've moved past a need for the VRA, but I also know that I live in a world where people seem to do horrible things unless someone expressly tells them not to. =p In that sense, I don't think it should be limited to a handful of states, it should affect all states.
I also believe that a lot of people just don't really know what racism looks like anymore; that's the only way I can understand the logic that "we've moved past it" just because Barack Obama is president. What a simplistic view of the world...

I dunno. When it comes to people, I'm cynical, and probably always will be. When they do bad things, I'm not surprised, and when they do great things, I'm extra happy. =p

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 9:03:32 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: muhly22222

The exceptional circumstance that justified a law that applied to some states and not to others has passed. That exceptional circumstance wasn't the incidence of individual racism, it was the pervasiveness of systemic racism.


Do you watch the news? I'm sure you see, every election, the 4-hour lines at understaffed polling places in largely black and Hispanic neighborhoods, where people were turned away after waiting all day to vote because polling closed before they had a chance to vote... while their townspeople in whiter neighborhoods were in an out in no time.

Oh, and closer to home for me, back in, 2006, I think, the Republican governor of Maryland had his campaign office paper majority-black neighborhoods with flyers "reminding" people that voting was going to be on Wednesday. (In 2010, his campaign manager did more of the same kind of racist tricks, and went to jail for voter fraud.)

And then there's the voter ID question. PA, for example, has not had a proven case of voter fraud of that type in the state's history, and yet to prevent something that likely has never happened and likely never will, they're willing to disenfranchise large numbers of minorities, disabled people and senior citizens.

Voter rights are still an issue, and still at risk.

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RE: JUSTICE ATONIN SCALIA - 3/3/2013 12:39:36 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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The VRA may be out of date, but not for the reasons Scalia states.

Discrimination is still alive and well, and it affects people's voting rights in some areas of the country.

There needs to be an effective way to counter discriminatory voting practices across the whole country that is better designed to target the types of abuses we currently see. And I see no reason why such laws should not be applicable everywhere.

As for Scalia's notion of "racial entitlement", I can only say this. It is not an "entitlement" to be able to exercise one's right to vote. While it is sad that we need the VRA to ensure that some of our citizens in certain parts of the country are not denied the right to vote, I would hardly call this an "entitlement" the way Scalia wants to characterize it. Ridiculous use of language making it sound like blacks are getting something "special" when the law simply protects their right to vote.

Scalia does not support individual rights, in general, whether related to voting or not. Anyone who believes in individual freedoms in this country should really be concerned about this man. People who call themselves "libertarian" please take not. This man is not really on your side.

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