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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/4/2013 9:58:33 PM   
littlewonder


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Personally, I'm a Christian but I don't read the bible the way others have interpreted it to say not to have sex outside of marriage. I personally feel it's fine to have sex outside of marriage as long as you are both committed to each other in the eyes of God. The piece of paper is just that...a piece of paper. I don't consider that paper, a marriage but just a legal civil union. Marriage is a spiritual joining of souls as into one before God. And being I am very traditional and grew up in a society where people were married without the piece of paper and the husband is the head of the household, and a wife submits to her husband, I don't have any kind of contradictions whatsoever.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/4/2013 10:04:47 PM   
LadyPact


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I am a person of faith who believe that Jesus Christ did live on earth. By definition, that makes Me a Christian. My involvement in BDSM doesn't change that. I'm probably in more hot water with God for being poly than I am for being a sadist. By the same token, since it's Him that gets to be the authority figure on that, I figure I'll deal with Him directly. Not other people who want to decide to do His job by sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.

Yep, I'm a female Dominant and I'm in charge of My poly household. What's in the Bible wouldn't have accepted that because women were still second class citizens by law. I'm going to be pretty shocked if God isn't more evolved than that, so I don't worry about it much. What else would you expect to be on the pages when it was transcribed by men of that time?

As for owning slaves, whippings, public displays, plural marriage, etc, etc....... Well, all of that is in those same pages. Kind of hard to deny that.


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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/4/2013 10:20:56 PM   
Powergamz1


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Define 'Christian'. Define 'BDSM'.

One interpretation is that the only place the Bible talks about 'the Christians', is in the context of the persecution of disciples of Christ, who devoted their entire beings to emulating his life... Essene level extreme self denial, constant travelling, spreading the word, and direct suffering (ranging from scourges to death).

An echo of that is found in the various self flagellation rituals.

But the real question is, I suspect, would be 'Does God want you to enjoy it?'... and the answer would seem to be 'Why else would he make it an involuntary reaction?'



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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/4/2013 11:10:35 PM   
tweakabelle


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While it's just a tad off topic, the story of Matt Talbot might be helpful here.

Talbot was a poor Dubliner who died in 1925. By all accounts, he was a wretched alcoholic, even by Irish standards, which tend to be a bit more generous than most in this area. After many years of heavy drinking, he "saw the light", stopped drinking and became a devout believer.

When he died it was discovered that, for many years, he had been wearing a heavy chain that had been wound around his waist, with more chains around an arm and a leg, and cords around the other arm and leg.

My mother who told me this story, interpreted Talbot's self mortification as a sign of his piety and asceticism, in line with the traditional Irish Catholic interpretation. More contemporary interpretations would have it that Talbot was a masochist into severe self denial and pain. There are, I believe, numerous other 'saints' with similar stories.

Was Talbot a saint who practiced self mortification in order to atone for his sins or was he a recovering alcoholic masochist? Or perhaps, both?

Are there numerous cross over points between BDSM and Christianity (and other religious traditions), especially within the ascetic tradition? It might be worthwhile recalling that Christian symbolism and BDSM symbols/accessories (eg. a St Catherine's Wheel, Jesus was flogged on his way to crucifiction) are often so similar as to be identical.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/4/2013 11:14:25 PM >


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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 12:14:40 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wittynamehere
You don't find many religious fundamentalists practicing BDSM.

I don't know I tend to get a fundi vibe off the taken in hand crowd and as it's already been pointed out the biblical based stereotypical 50's marriage was completely a M/f D/s dynamic.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 12:18:45 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
There are, I believe, numerous other 'saints' with similar stories.


Pope John Paul II was into flogging himself.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 12:49:24 AM   
zpenguin


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Very interesting tweekable liked the post

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 1:03:18 AM   
littlewonder


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Many monks in certain christian orders wear cilices and hair hair shirts as a way of emulating the pain that Jesus felt and to atone for their sins. Many Christians feel that they need to suffer in order to reach a faith closer to God. I have to say, I'm sorta one of those and probably why I "enjoy" suffering at the hands of Master who is what I consider the God-head within our relationship. For me it is a type of spiritual cleansing not only in the sense of God but in bringing myself to a better being within our relationship.


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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 6:41:45 AM   
cordeliasub


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Ever read Song of Solomon lol

Ephesians 5 definitely has a D/s vibe to it - husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church....wives submit to your husbands....

I remember our pastor doing a series through Song of Solomon - it was really fun to watch the middle aged plus married couples. You could tell which ones were into it and which ones probably only had sex enough times to have kids. :)

Personally, I think that if a couple both consent, anything goes. And I tend to agree with littlewonder. Since the marriage ceremony, etc. was not the way it is today with licenses and legalities and walking down a church aisle (you think they had a justice of the peace out in the desert?) I think that a committed relationship fits the bill. Not to mention that some of the strictness had to do with preventing pregnancy, etc. which we can do much more effectively now.

Personally, I think most conservative Christian churches do much more to harm a person's sexuality, setting them up to be either incapable of really enjoying sex (which God invented, btw, if someone believes the Bible) OR sets them up from one helluva "mid life crisis" sooner or later when they finally do let go.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 8:15:01 AM   
Charles6682


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I do believe Jesus walked this Earth.Jesus actually treated Women with respect back in those days,something that was rare back then.I do believe in alot of the gold will and brotherly/sisterly love that I do think Jesus was truly trying to teach.Some of those childhood teachings have served a very important role in my life,even now.I learned the concept of loving thy neighbor,helping those less fortunate.Human compassion for my fellow human being.I do credit my childhood upbringing for instilling those values into me.Now,I'm not a hardcore religous fanatic and I don't wear my spiritual beliefs on my sleeve.If you want to set an example,do it through action,not just words.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/5/2013 8:16:07 AM >


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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 8:23:32 AM   
Charles6682


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I wouldn't take everything in the Bible to an extreme.The Bible offers some great books and stories as a guide,but not meant to be taken to the extreme to every word in the Bible.If thats the case,then alot of us should be without a hand.It says somewhere in the Bible,that if your hand cause you to sin(lust),then it is better to go into heaven with no hand,than to be in hell wiith both hands.Then it even mentions if your eye causes you to sin(lust)then would it not be better to be in Heaven with no eye than to be in hell with both eyes?

The point is,it is not meant to be taken literal to every single word.Otherwise,we should all be having one less eye and hand.Count me out of that one! lol

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 5:19:30 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zpenguin

So I've had a few people ask me about being Christian and being into the scene if its a conflict of interests. My personal thoughts are yes, you can be both. Granted I know you are supposed to be Married to have intercourse according to Christian Laws but no body is a saint.
I'm am looking to see other peoples' thoughts on this subject.
(I know some people will get stirred up about this so keep it polite please)


This lifestyle and being a Christian are as compatible as the Big Bang theory creating everything out of nothing vs. God snapping his fingers and saying "let there be stuff".

Fully compatible.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/5/2013 10:16:02 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
Many monks in certain christian orders wear cilices and hair hair shirts as a way of emulating the pain that Jesus felt and to atone for their sins. Many Christians feel that they need to suffer in order to reach a faith closer to God. I have to say, I'm sorta one of those and probably why I "enjoy" suffering at the hands of Master who is what I consider the God-head within our relationship. For me it is a type of spiritual cleansing not only in the sense of God but in bringing myself to a better being within our relationship.


I suppose the religion could be a submissives wet dream but when I see that stuff, that's not what I'm getting. I keep getting the vibe of that mental disorder where people feel compelled to cut/self harm in order to feel clean.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/6/2013 12:51:57 AM   
littlewonder


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and that's your perogative.

Out of suffering have emerged the strongest souls; the most massive characters are seared with scars. -Kahlil Gibran

If you had not suffered as you have, there would be no depth to you as a human being, no humility, no compassion. You would not be reading this now. Suffering cracks open the shell of ego, and then comes a point where it has served its purpose. Suffering is necessary until you realize it is unnecessary. -Ekhart Toole

No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude and humility. All that we suffer and all that we endure, especially when we endure it patiently, builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God . . . and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education that we come here to acquire and which will make us more like our Father and Mother in heaven.
― Orson F. Whitney

Suffering is a gift in its hidden mercy. -Rumi

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/6/2013 4:21:49 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

thanks for the promotional leaflet about your particular religion but the OP is a Christian not a UU so I imagine his/her beliefs are rather different


Rather than non-Christian, the word you are looking for is non-trinitarian.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/6/2013 10:36:08 AM   
GotSteel


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Those are pretty quotes and all but they don't change how unhealthy this sort of behavior is nor the unhealthy nature of the self loathing that leads to it:


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/self-injury/DS00775
Self-injury, also called self-harm, is the act of deliberately harming your own body, such as cutting or burning yourself. It's typically not meant as a suicide attempt. Rather, self-injury is an unhealthy way to cope with emotional pain, intense anger and frustration.

While self-injury may bring a momentary sense of calm and a release of tension, it's usually followed by guilt and shame and the return of painful emotions. And with self-injury comes the possibility of more serious and even fatal self-aggressive actions.

Because self-injury is often done impulsively, it can be considered an impulse-control behavior problem. Self-injury may be linked to a variety of mental disorders, such as depression, eating disorders and borderline personality disorder.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/6/2013 3:09:04 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


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As I heard it, Jesus died on the cross because he refused to use his safeword.

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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/6/2013 6:49:48 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Those are pretty quotes and all but they don't change how unhealthy this sort of behavior is nor the unhealthy nature of the self loathing that leads to it:


quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/self-injury/DS00775
Self-injury, also called self-harm, is the act of deliberately harming your own body, such as cutting or burning yourself. It's typically not meant as a suicide attempt. Rather, self-injury is an unhealthy way to cope with emotional pain, intense anger and frustration.

While self-injury may bring a momentary sense of calm and a release of tension, it's usually followed by guilt and shame and the return of painful emotions. And with self-injury comes the possibility of more serious and even fatal self-aggressive actions.

Because self-injury is often done impulsively, it can be considered an impulse-control behavior problem. Self-injury may be linked to a variety of mental disorders, such as depression, eating disorders and borderline personality disorder.



Yup. Cutters and those like them, do so because they are trying to cope with emotional pain, anger and frustration.

Those who do so for religious reasons do it because they are getting closer to God, they are working towards bettering their spiritual health.

Completely different reasons. I don't have any emotional pain. I am not angry and not frustrated at all by anything in my life. I'm actually just the opposite in my life.


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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/6/2013 10:26:24 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Cutters and those like them, do so because they are trying to cope with emotional pain, anger and frustration.

Those who do so for religious reasons do it because they are getting closer to God, they are working towards bettering their spiritual health.

Completely different reasons.


It is far from clear to me that the distinctions drawn are as simple and universal as this post suggests.

I have no doubt that some of those people who subject themselves to mortification rituals in various religions sincerely feel that their sole motivation is religious. Equally, I have no doubt that some others who engage in these rituals are doing so to satisfy their masochistic feelings and rationalising those feelings/behaviours as 'religiously-motivated'. People in denial about their own sexuality are often very creative in finding ways of rationalising it away. How many people like to justify and rationalise their 'perverse' sexual feelings and behaviours with 'noble' (read:non-sexual) explanations of their motivation? How many people who harbour 'secret' masochistic desires will leap at the opportunity to realise those desires if given a socially approved arena to do so?

The actions of masochists/cutters and others who engage in these rituals can be interpreted in a multitude of ways, depending on one's philosophical disposition. Just one example - those influenced by Freudian approaches would have no difficulty understanding and explaining these phenomena as sexual sublimation.

The cross overs between religions (of various hues) and BDSM are legion. Given the complexity of human sexual drives and behaviours, and the intensity of religious feelings, simple black-and-white distinctions fail to help explain these behaviours to me. While I doubt if it is possible to disentangle the two in all cases, it does seem highly likely to me is that cognitive dissonance must be involved in some cases at one level or another.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/6/2013 10:48:53 PM >


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RE: Christian BDSM? - 3/7/2013 2:07:34 PM   
zpenguin


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Hmm this topic took an interesting turn. I feel the self cleansing, "self chastising" is really an old school thing but I do know people still do it. I wouldn't do it. But those that do I find interesting. I would love to sit down with someone who does it for religious purposes and talk about it.

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