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gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 2:52:38 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Sitting here in CO and watching this debated over gun control unfold, I can't help but comment. First off, I am a gun owner. While I object on principle to most gun control legislation, I have, for the most part, just ignored the most recent round of it. I guess I just haven't cared that much. But now, I have gotten to thinking. I just ask myself what the hell are they really trying to accomplish?

Colorado and others have are now hell bent on placing restrictions on magazine capacity as well toying with notion placing tougher restrictions on the types of guns sold (semi-automatic etc). This seems all well and good considering some of the recent mass shootings involved high-capacity magazines. But really what would this accomplish? As the Denver DA put it, the current block of gun control legislation is 'window dressing' Link. Limiting magazine capacity may slightly curb a death toll, but really will do nothing to impact the heart of the problem: people who shouldn't have guns getting them.

Being a gun owner I have no qualm with laws that are meant to inhibit people from getting guns that would be used for criminal purposes, despite how some people at the NRA feel about privacy etc. Like the Denver DA, I certainly agree that we need much harsher penalties associated with domestic violence suspects and felon caught with guns. And, I think it is time we put some kind of mental health component in the background checks system for heaven's sake. Finally, we need background checks even on private sales. I know a lot of gun nuts have an issue with this, but there is no logical reason why. It is a backdoor way to let felons and nut jobs get weapons. Anyone who really loves guns shouldn't want the kind of access to guns we have now. I am not talking to type or variety, simply the ease in which one can acquire one.

So, why the current batch of legislation? I think it is pure spite. It has nothing to do with safety or anything else for that matter. It is purely designed to piss of the non-democratic gun control crowd and do nothing more. While it is working splendidly at doing so, it has an unintended consequence. The mass consumption of guns and high cap mags. You can't buy them right now, they are sold out everywhere (I ordered 10 high cap mags and am on a 5 week backorder). More of these things are pouring into the streets than ever before. Y? They are creating a panic. This is just silly (On the other hand this is making me rich, my arsenal that picked up for about 11k in 2004-2006 is now worth about 35k!!! WHOOPPEEE).

However, I know this matters very little to many. Those who would argue we need to ban guns anyways. Well, to that I am going to offer a very controversial idea. This idea is the glass half full idea that thank god the theater shooter and sandy hook shooter only had guns! Yes, thank god that's all they had. Now, let me explain. While it is pretty much undisputed that both these people were psychos, there is a great deal of dispute as to how such tragedies could have been prevented. I say gun control had nothing to do with it. In fact, the fact they used guns may have very well limited the death toll.

First the theater: Let's assume he was unable to get a gun and was going to go on a rampage regardless (which is safe to assume considering the months of preparation he undertook). Had he simply chained an exit or two in that theater and set off a hand full of Molotov cocktails, 100+theater patrons could have very easily burned to death. Even a homemade chemical weapon could have had a very similar effect. Second the School: Let's say he still has a gun, but this time no high cap mags. Let's assume he has nothing but a 6-shooter with only 4 rounds. All he would have to do is fire off 2-3 rounds and the school would go into lock-down in the post columbine era. Basically, he gets all the teachers to incarcerate the entire student body for him. The he pulls out the homemade fire bombs, or gas, or whatever....Those children would have been trapped in a giant kill machine.

In both cases, thank the stars that American laziness took over, and all the reached for was a gun.

Now, I know this may have some reeling, but really, how do you prevent such events? Maybe we take a page out of the war on drugs. For decades the US has pissed away billions of dollars the seizure, confiscation, and outlaw or drug and can't really say they have done much to curb it use and abuse in the US. Yet, when anyone spends that money on programs that treat the addicts, it proves far more effective than going after the dealers. With incidents like the Aurora theater shooting and the Sandy Hook Massacre, money and effort would be better spent on our mentally ill. One difference between the US and other countries, isn't necessarily our murder rate, it is how little we do for our mentally ill compared to others.

I think it is time we do something about these tragedies, and I think the only way we can truly prevent them is with sensible legislation. It requires the right giving up on the idea of total privacy in gun transactions, and the left giving up on the notion of statist gun control. Let's face it you can still piss off the right by using it as an excuse to push government mental health care .
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 3:23:59 PM   
Real0ne


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first there is no money in governemnt "fixing" anything. second for everything the government appears to fix it breaks 2 things that will need to be fixed in the future.

Otherwise isnt it obvious with all the anti gun lobbying going on on all the boards et al?

What is the Hegelian Dialectic?

By Niki Raapana and Nordica Friedrich

Introduction: Why study Hegel?

"...the State 'has the supreme right against the individual, whose supreme duty is to be a member of the State... for the right of the world spirit is above all special privileges.'" Author/historian William Shirer, quoting Georg Hegel in his The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1959, page 144)

In 1847 the London Communist League (Karl Marx and Frederick Engels) used Hegel's theory of the dialectic to back up their economic theory of communism. Now, in the 21st century, Hegelian-Marxist thinking affects our entire social and political structure. The Hegelian dialectic is the framework for guiding our thoughts and actions into conflicts that lead us to a predetermined solution. If we do not understand how the Hegelian dialectic shapes our perceptions of the world, then we do not know how we are helping to implement the vision. When we remain locked into dialectical thinking, we cannot see out of the box.

Hegel's dialectic is the tool which manipulates us into a frenzied circular pattern of thought and action. Every time we fight for or defend against an ideology we are playing a necessary role in Marx and Engels' grand design to advance humanity into a dictatorship of the proletariat. The synthetic Hegelian solution to all these conflicts can't be introduced unless we all take a side that will advance the agenda. The Marxist's global agenda is moving along at breakneck speed. The only way to completely stop the privacy invasions, expanding domestic police powers, land grabs, insane wars against inanimate objects (and transient verbs), covert actions, and outright assaults on individual liberty, is to step outside the dialectic.

This releases us from the limitations of controlled and guided thought. [and why everyone is in love with me!]

When we understand what motivated Hegel, we can see his influence on all of our destinies. ... Hegelian conflicts steer every political arena on the planet, from the United Nations to the major American political parties, all the way down to local school boards and community councils. Dialogues and consensus-building are primary tools of the dialectic, and terror and intimidation are also acceptable formats for obtaining the goal. The ultimate Third Way agenda is world government. Once we get what's really going on, we can cut the strings and move our lives in original directions outside the confines of the dialectical madness. Focusing on Hegel's and Engel's ultimate agenda, and avoiding getting caught up in their impenetrable theories of social evolution, gives us the opportunity to think and act our way toward freedom, justice, and genuine liberty for all.

Today the dialectic is active in every political issue that encourages taking sides. We can see it in

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/8/2013 3:30:28 PM >


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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 3:36:51 PM   
DomKen


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FR

You can always find a justification for anything if you try hard enough. The op is that.

Banning high capacity magazines is a reasonable step since many of these gun mass murders have ended when the shooter was overwhelmed while trying to reload.

The thing you and pretty much every person arguing against gun control is failing to get is that the NRA and the gun makers that fund and run it are intent on blocking the universal background check for all sales. Which is certainly the fairly obvious thing to do to keep firearms out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them. 92% of the population supports universal background checks but the NRA controlled US House won't even consider any bill that does so.

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 3:41:55 PM   
FunCouple5280


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It is an issue that they won't support the checks, they should. But banning the mags isn't going to make a dent. Really you are banning them for a handful of incidents that happen in a given year that might save a handful of lives. Requiring helmets while driving would save many more lives.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 3:47:39 PM   
Real0ne


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yeh its called infringement last time I checked.

Sure ban guns and whats next?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR30knJs4Xk

things could be much much worse.

The object of the second was to insure the people had the same tools, (arms) as the government should necessity require changes. The people have already fallen behind dont you think?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 3:55:57 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

It is an issue that they won't support the checks, they should. But banning the mags isn't going to make a dent. Really you are banning them for a handful of incidents that happen in a given year that might save a handful of lives. Requiring helmets while driving would save many more lives.



yeh and bullet proof vests for school children woud have saved most of those lives too!

I have an idea,,,,,,, how about we ban politicians?

What lunatic would come up with this plan unless they had an agenda as I have shown in my first post? LOL






there are over 300 million guns in the hands of the public in america. its the slow infringement slice by slice nibbling away our rights.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/8/2013 3:58:48 PM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 4:03:34 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Banning high capacity magazines is a reasonable step since many of these gun mass murders have ended when the shooter was overwhelmed while trying to reload.

Many, eh? Well since it takes about 1 second -- 2 if you're a klutz -- to drop an empty clip and shove a fresh one home, ready to fire, how about documenting this claim with a few examples. Note that "few" mean more than one.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 7:01:04 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Banning high capacity magazines is a reasonable step since many of these gun mass murders have ended when the shooter was overwhelmed while trying to reload.



Can you document 2?

I couldn't find one.

1 and 2 are both a lot less than "Many"

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 7:06:16 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I couldn't find one.

Doesn't matter. When talking about mass shootings, the only really important thing is not to mention "gun-free zones".

K.

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 7:09:35 PM   
TheHeretic


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Clips are such simple little things. I bet you could make one out of pick-up-stix, and shrinky-dink, on a lego jig, and cured in an easy-bake oven. The whole subject of banning them is theater for the stupid, and will only impact the law abiding firearm owner.

I am, in all honesty, a lousy shot with a pistol. If I owned a Glock or such, I'd want the biggest clip possible, just to up my chances of a hit, and for the psychological impact of that much lead going the bad guy's way.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 7:13:36 PM   
Owner59


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Just try`n to slow the nutty-gunners down a bit while while you guys enable them......sorry...

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 7:17:45 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I am, in all honesty, a lousy shot with a pistol. If I owned a Glock or such, I'd want the biggest clip possible, just to up my chances of a hit, and for the psychological impact of that much lead going the bad guy's way.

Not to mention that the "bad guys" might be plural.

Though just as seriously, depending on the size of your hands a fat double-stack might not be the best choice. They don't conceal as easily as a single-stack either, especially if you're skinny.

K.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/8/2013 7:48:53 PM   
TheHeretic


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Concealed carry isn't a factor for me (neither is being skinny ).

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 3:20:03 AM   
Nosathro


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Well this does not surprise me...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/nra-representative-banned-using-gun-212834429.html?bcmt_s=m#ugccmt-container

Well so much for what the NRA thinks of the lst Amemdment

http://news.yahoo.com/gun-owners-supporting-sensible-controls-must-speak-050029560.html

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 4:37:04 AM   
Yachtie


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I didn't know it was legal to hunt humans with 15 or more round magazines. But damn!!! Feinstein says it is.

“The time has come, America, to step up and ban these weapons. The other very important part of this bill is to ban large capacity ammunition feeding devices, those that hold more than 10 rounds. We have federal regulations and state laws that prohibit hunting ducks with more than three rounds. And yet it’s legal to hunt humans with 15-round, 30-round, even 150-round magazines. Limiting magazine capacity is critical because it is when a criminal, a drug dealer, a deranged individual has to pause to change magazines and reload that the police or brave bystanders have the opportunity to take that individual down.” (emphasis added)

See the vid... yeah, she said it's legal. No shit. And she's a US fucking Senator. Then again... par for the course.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 6:21:55 AM   
Owner59


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Not sure that the party who twists every possible meaning for words other than their defined meaning has any credibility calling out the Senator, for her creative but stingingly true statement....

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President Obama

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 9:00:34 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Banning high capacity magazines is a reasonable step since many of these gun mass murders have ended when the shooter was overwhelmed while trying to reload.

Many, eh? Well since it takes about 1 second -- 2 if you're a klutz -- to drop an empty clip and shove a fresh one home, ready to fire, how about documenting this claim with a few examples. Note that "few" mean more than one.

K.


The Giffords attack
The Long Island Railroad attack
The Thurston High School attack

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 9:30:45 AM   
Nosathro


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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Banning high capacity magazines is a reasonable step since many of these gun mass murders have ended when the shooter was overwhelmed while trying to reload.

Many, eh? Well since it takes about 1 second -- 2 if you're a klutz -- to drop an empty clip and shove a fresh one home, ready to fire, how about documenting this claim with a few examples. Note that "few" mean more than one.

K.



It seems reloading have alot of factors, even the best can reload in about 2.5 second, remember these guy have done alot of practice and such. I would say for the average person, closer to 5 seconds.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/99cb75fc3f0af44073fed0e305cad22a-876.html

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/26827/semi-automatic-handgun-reloading/

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/116973-reload-time-revolver-vs-semi-auto.html

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 9:34:57 AM   
Nosathro


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From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

It is an issue that they won't support the checks, they should. But banning the mags isn't going to make a dent. Really you are banning them for a handful of incidents that happen in a given year that might save a handful of lives. Requiring helmets while driving would save many more lives.



yeh and bullet proof vests for school children woud have saved most of those lives too!

I have an idea,,,,,,, how about we ban politicians?

What lunatic would come up with this plan unless they had an agenda as I have shown in my first post? LOL






there are over 300 million guns in the hands of the public in america. its the slow infringement slice by slice nibbling away our rights.







With 300 milion guns that means just about a gun for every person. How many more until we are safe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990

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RE: gun control and tragedies - 3/9/2013 10:20:44 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The Giffords attack
The Long Island Railroad attack
The Thurston High School attack

Well damn, score Ken on the reloading bit. But I notice something else interesting here in two of the cases.

During the next three minutes, Ferguson killed six people and injured another 19... Ferguson had emptied two 15-round magazines during the shooting. While reloading his third magazine somebody yelled, "Grab him!"

This illustrates that the reloading factor offers a rather poor advantage to the victims, even in a crowded subway car where people are presumably close enough to risk it.

Kinkel fired a total of 50 rounds, accumulating 37 hits, and two fatalities. When Kinkel's rifle ran out of ammunition and he began to reload, wounded student Jacob Ryker tackled him, assisted by several other students. Kinkel drew the Glock and fired one shot before he was disarmed, injuring Ryker again as well as another student.

So let's review: 19 injured and 6 dead in the first example, 2 dead and 37 injured in the second, all unarmed, all helpless to do anything except watch the horror unfold, because schools are "gun-free" zones and getting a carry permit in New York City is next to impossible. Even in the Gifford case, the shooting was only stopped because the klutz dropped the mag!

Yet we have people seriously proposing - with a perfectly straight face - limiting magazine capacity as an intelligent response. I mean seriously, in my opinion some people have such a powerful aversion to guns that it impairs their contact with reality.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/9/2013 10:33:55 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
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