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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/11/2013 5:14:04 PM   
HarryVanWinkle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Oh, but the Church is absolutely right about all the other nonsense it insists upon, even when the Bible contradicts it, directly. As in Genesis 2 : 7. Life and breath are synonymous. Thus sayeth The Lord. Yet, dogma insists life begins at conception. Because it's convenient.

Because it's convenient? Or because you are Biblically illiterate?

for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof ~Leviticus 17:14

Genesis 2:7 does not say that life and breath are synonymous, and its words are not spoken by God.

breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ~Genesis 2:7

The breath (ruach) confers life (not "is" life) and the man becomes (not "receives") a soul (nephesh).

K.



One of the wonderful things about the Wholly Babble. Almost no matter what your "One True Faith" preaches, you can easily find quotes there to support it. While another "One True Faith" can find their own quotes that contradict it.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/11/2013 5:29:57 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle

One of the wonderful things about the Wholly Babble. Almost no matter what your "One True Faith" preaches, you can easily find quotes there to support it. While another "One True Faith" can find their own quotes that contradict it.

That's very true. And then there's what it says, which usually isn't either.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/11/2013 5:32:42 PM >

(in reply to HarryVanWinkle)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/11/2013 7:47:27 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
If you are an atheist, does it bother you that young people are leaving the Church - but still remain spiritual, still remain religious - but still haven't "converted" to atheism? Aren't your arguments good enough?


No it doesn't bother me. It was a long time from when I left the church I was raised in until I identified as an atheist. And I mean a long time, I held a bunch of positions before I ended up at atheism, heck I even gave a Zen Buddhist monastery in Japan a try.

We're talking about well over a decade of indoctrination. That amount of brain washing and social pressure isn't likely to disappear overnight because of any argument no matter how good. Deprogramming is probably going to take quite a while.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/11/2013 7:54:15 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryVanWinkle
One of the wonderful things about the Wholly Babble. Almost no matter what your "One True Faith" preaches, you can easily find quotes there to support it. While another "One True Faith" can find their own quotes that contradict it.

That's very true. And then there's what it says, which usually isn't either.
K.


Man, I think I'll just be content to judge a person on their actual deeds rather than on the label they hang on themselves. Now that I think on it I know at least two ordained (in something or other) christians who aren't at all concerned that I don't believe in god or jesus. They are both pretty big on actual results also and they suspect both God & Jesus are in that same camp.

If someone wants to support their faith to me they don't need a Holy Bible or a Wholly Babble. What they need is to demonstrate in clear terms that their faith produces goodness. That seems to be very true for some <insert religious label here> and very false for others.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/11/2013 7:55:17 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I don't know that I'm exactly an atheist. I'm more "I don't care and I don't see what either God or Jesus has to do with my life."


Sounds like your an apatheist. I've been there. For many the transition from apatheist to "evangelical atheist" is the result of meeting too many religious asshats.

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/11/2013 8:05:47 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto
Religious Evangelicals and Atheist Evangelicals share one thing in common - the belief that their arguments alone (because their arguments are so compelling) will "convert" others to their way of thinking.


Wait, when did either group start thinking that?

(in reply to Fightdirecto)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 2:03:37 AM   
FrostedFlake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Oh, but the Church is absolutely right about all the other nonsense it insists upon, even when the Bible contradicts it, directly. As in Genesis 2 : 7. Life and breath are synonymous. Thus sayeth The Lord. Yet, dogma insists life begins at conception. Because it's convenient.

Because it's convenient? Or because you are Biblically illiterate?

for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof ~Leviticus 17:14

Genesis 2:7 does not say that life and breath are synonymous, and its words are not spoken by God.

breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ~Genesis 2:7

The breath (ruach) confers life (not "is" life) and the man becomes (not "receives") a soul (nephesh).

K.


Genesis was written by Moses, who spoke for God. Not casually. Professionally.

God hires Moses to speak for him.

Moses did indeed say what I said he did.

Genesis 2

Leviticus 17 does talk about blood being life, but the passage addresses that tangentially. It does not make a point about it. It deals directly with other matters : 1/ That sacrifice must be performed by the priests, not by just anyone. A power grab, if I read clearly. 2/ Dietary law.

What makes me think so? The title of the chapter is a clue : Blood Eating Forbidden.

Leviticus 17

In that you did not contradict me, I wonder why you contradicted me. Casually. Not professionally.

_____________________________

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simul justus et peccator
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(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 3:58:06 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower
Now...I am carrying the desire with me to leave catholic church and to join the protestant church (as I am not against the church taxes themselves) but as in my current field the majority of employers demand being part of the catholic church (at least in southern Germany) it would right now put me at risk to do me more harm than good...

Man... that is just creepy as fuck.


Well....its just as I am working most of the time within children- and youth-homes settings, many of them got funded by or given the funds to the church 100+ more years ago and so stayed partially under their influence...

That means in some of them (but they die out these days) are still some nuns active and in the others church still plays a reasonably big part in it, which means that you pray with the kids before the meal times, go to church with them most weekends or as it has been with one previous employer do sometimes throughout the year walking through the forest (the whole kids home with all kids and staff) embedded with some prayer ceremonies on the way to the final destination which has been planned....it also meant in that home that the houses are named after catholic people like Konrad or Martin or Pius and you celebrate their name-day with the house group you are working in as well as the bosses of that employment...

And so in such employment situations if you are catholic you are the preference cause you contribute with your taxes to their belief already....if you are part of another religion you are often in second line (so it would look not good at all when I would appear like a trouble maker already with having changed the faith in my CV) and if you are not member of any church at all, then you usually don't get in at all....after all, if you are working for an employer with a christian job to do with the kids then you are supposed to be a member of it...

There are some employers where it does not matter if you are a member of the church or not, like my last one, but those ones are rare in southern germany...

And thats for now the only reason I am still a member of it as it is just not helpful in life to slam doors unneccessarily in regards to work...

But that being said....the employers who demand being part of a church I enjoyed working for and have no reason to talk bad about them....now the ones who are not being part of it I did not really enjoy so far....so whilst I am not saying that it makes a difference (after all, the church has enough bad press for a reason) so far I experienced a huge difference in the people working there...

Anyhow, my personal aim is to get stable in my degree job in about 10 years time (after sorting out some private stuff) and then to leave the catholic church to the protestant one...cause in that field it does not matter if you are member of a church or not...

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 4/12/2013 3:59:57 AM >


_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 4:05:28 AM   
thezeppo


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Do the children get a choice in that situation? If not it could be further reason why so many stop going to church when they are able.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 5:10:33 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

Over here a fair amount of people leave church to avoid having to pay church tax...

Now...I am carrying the desire with me to leave catholic church and to join the protestant church (as I am not against the church taxes themselves) but as in my current field the majority of employers demand being part of the catholic church (at least in southern Germany) it would right now put me at risk to do me more harm than good...

So for now I am leaving that aim to leave it and hope to do so in a few years time, but at least I will make sure that if I have kids one day, that they will not be part of the catholic church....but the protestant church instead...as there are just too many things in the catholic church which I am very much against.



Does that add up to a mild form of theocracy? I'm surprised that employers feel the need to ask job seekers their religion. It really is none of their business. Isn't this type of intrusiveness illegal? It would be here, unless there were special and unusual circumstances.

Re: The OP:
As a non-believer, it doesn't bother me in the slightest why young people leave the churches they were raised in. My experience of a 'Christian' education is that it was a prolonged tortuous brainwashing that I resented greatly once I realised what nonsense it all was. The only thing that surprises me is that greater numbers of young people aren't leaving.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/12/2013 5:14:48 AM >


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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 6:55:52 AM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thezeppo

Do the children get a choice in that situation? If not it could be further reason why so many stop going to church when they are able.


In case you are asking in regards to my example, once they are 14 they do not have to take part on the church stuff there cause once you are 14 you can chose yourself at school as well, if you take part on religious education or not (which I dropped out back then due to a horrid bullying religious teacher who kept demanding oh so much knowledge from me which I seriously did not care about....) so they can spend time by themselves (though outside of bed and outside of the group house whilst the rest is at church) until the church visit is over.

_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to thezeppo)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 7:03:11 AM   
DarkSteven


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What's the point of the study? It basically affirms that children who are made to attend church, frequently leave once they have the option to do so. If you want to look at overall church attendance, then the missing pieces of the puzzle are:

1. How many previous non-attendees choose to join once they're old enough to decide for themselves, and
2. How many who have left the church choose to come back after they have children and want to bring the kids up religious?

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 7:04:05 AM   
Phoenixpower


Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

Over here a fair amount of people leave church to avoid having to pay church tax...

Now...I am carrying the desire with me to leave catholic church and to join the protestant church (as I am not against the church taxes themselves) but as in my current field the majority of employers demand being part of the catholic church (at least in southern Germany) it would right now put me at risk to do me more harm than good...

So for now I am leaving that aim to leave it and hope to do so in a few years time, but at least I will make sure that if I have kids one day, that they will not be part of the catholic church....but the protestant church instead...as there are just too many things in the catholic church which I am very much against.



Does that add up to a mild form of theocracy? I'm surprised that employers feel the need to ask job seekers their religion. It really is none of their business. Isn't this type of intrusiveness illegal? It would be here, unless there were special and unusual circumstances.


Well, as you pay church tax over here (I paid last year roughly 400 euro on that one) they simply do enquire about it due to their connection with the church...

My last interview guy asked me straight if I left church, following which I told him which church I belong to...

It simply sadly still is a reasonably big deal here in the south of this country...

Privately I don't care much about church....I do believe in general....but I am pretty disgusted about the shit which is going on in the catholic one....cause despite the abuse news which happens always now and again, over here we also had many instances in the news where colleagues from me who worked in kindergarden (not known personally to me but after all they are colleagues in my field), got sacked from "the church" as employer due to outing that they are gay or due to getting a divorce...and such shit is just seriously outdated these days....or at least it should be...

Hence why I spent a lot of time considering my options in regards to leaving it...but decided for now to still wait a bit....as I just have the wrong job to take that decision too lightly...



_____________________________

RIP 08-09-07

The PAST is history, the FUTURE a mystery, NOW is a gift - that's why it's called the PRESENT

www.butyoudontlooksick.com/navigation/BYDLS-TheSpoonTheory.pdf

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 7:33:00 AM   
thezeppo


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Yes, sorry I should have quoted what you said. I think that seems to be a common theme with those of us who had an upbringing that was closely tied to the church, at least from people that I know. The most devout Christians I know personally are those who found God for themselves rather than being told about him from childhood, and I think you need to be of a certain age to find God in that way and make an informed decision.

To go back to the original post, It seems to me that professional (for want of a better word) atheists are more against the actions of certain sections of the Christian faith, rather than the faith itself. Debates I have seen revolve more around evolution vs intelligent design, the Catholic church in the Third World, etc, rather than the existence of God. It would be rather tiresome to debate on that point in my opinion, I don't think it would be possible to come to a conclusion.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 8:09:07 AM   
Owner59


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IMHO...those "leaving THE church" are in no way leaving god or their spirituality.


Seems more times then not,churches are political entities,concentrations of power and money,the larger and more wealthy they become,the more harm they do and the more they can do harm without repercussion




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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 8:16:46 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
Genesis was written by Moses, who spoke for God. Not casually. Professionally.

God hires Moses to speak for him.

Moses did indeed say what I said he did.

Genesis 2

Leviticus 17 does talk about blood being life, but the passage addresses that tangentially. It does not make a point about it. It deals directly with other matters : 1/ That sacrifice must be performed by the priests, not by just anyone. A power grab, if I read clearly. 2/ Dietary law.

What makes me think so? The title of the chapter is a clue : Blood Eating Forbidden.

Leviticus 17

In that you did not contradict me, I wonder why you contradicted me. Casually. Not professionally.


You guys are talking about the same thing, the circulatory system. Our predecessors made a number of observations about how breathing keeps us alive and resorted to magical thinking to explain those observations.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 8:59:22 AM   
Fightdirecto


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One of the things I found most interesting is the chagrin on the part of the atheist blogger that those who were leaving the Church still remained personally spiritual and religious. I read an undertone of "Where have we atheists failed?"

_____________________________

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- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 9:12:42 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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As a child, I was baptized in and attended a lutheran church until my father stopped taking me. Apparently, a married church elder was condemning a woman for co-habitation and my father caught that same elder cheating on his wife.

_____________________________


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(in reply to Fightdirecto)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 9:23:11 AM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

What's the point of the study? It basically affirms that children who are made to attend church, frequently leave once they have the option to do so. If you want to look at overall church attendance, then the missing pieces of the puzzle are:

1. How many previous non-attendees choose to join once they're old enough to decide for themselves, and
2. How many who have left the church choose to come back after they have children and want to bring the kids up religious?

Four Reasons I Came Back to Church

quote:

I've written a couple of pieces lately that have gotten a lot of attention about why younger people tend to walk away from church...It was suggested that I might also post a piece about why young adults come back to church. Though I can't say for sure why ALL young adults in church do so, I can share a few reasons why I, as a young adult, went back after 10 years.

I FOUND A COMMUNITY THAT DEFIED CHRISTIAN STEREOTYPES

I left the church as a teenager on less than good terms. My youth leader threw a Bible at me for persisting with my questions, and the only image of Christianity I saw regularly in college was the guy in the student union standing on a box with a bullhorn, yelling at passersby about how we were doomed to hell without him.

Fortunately, I found a new community in my late 20s that represented something different. We met on Sunday evenings, gathered in the round, wore whatever we wanted and never once did I feel judged or scrutinized by the others in the group. I was welcomed for who I was, not what I could do or give, and I was included in gatherings outside the Sunday evening service as well.

I would not have even given it a try, though, had my girlfriend at the time (now my wife) not persisted in inviting me. I said no many times before saying yes, and it was only after I had seen enough evidence from her that defied my presuppositions about Christianity that I was finally wiling to see who these other people she gathered with were about. Thirteen years later, I'm a Christian author and speaker, I've helped found a new church and I've led worship in multiple congregations. Fortunately, God's grace is more persistent and patient than the time it took for me to get over my hurt feelings and biases against organized religion.

I FOUND MY VOICE

I've played music most of my life, but I never thought of myself as a "church music" person. There was the traditional piano or organ music with a choir and or the breathy, synth-saturated contemporary stuff. I couldn't play the first kind and I couldn't stand the second. It wasn't until a minister friend encouraged me to bring my guitar to worship one night and just share a couple of songs that were meaningful to me that something changed. A place in me that had been closed off for a long, long time cracked open and hasn't gone dormant ever since.

I believe that God's presence is ubiquitous but not imposing. All it takes is a small open space for the divine seeds to take root. For me, that opening was in music. I can only hope that others will have the chance to find what that space-creating thing is for them. It's worth looking for.

I FOUND DEEPER MEANING

One reason I was so willing to walk away from religion when I did was because there seemed to be two fundamental messages I heard, week after week. And after 17 years, that got pretty old. The two themes were:

1. If you died tomorrow, do you know where you'd spend eternity? or;

2. Jesus could come back any day. It could be today or even tomorrow, so you'd better get yourself right with God.

I don't really need a church to help reassure me I have some kind of divine fire insurance policy, or that God loves me in spite of the fact that I actually suck deep down inside. I was more interested in finding deeper meaning in this life, rather than worrying so much about what comes after that.

In my decade away from church, I studied all kinds of different philosophies and religions, but I didn't ever find the thing that helped me set my own ego aside, helped me get over myself and see that life is about more than just getting my needs and wants fulfilled. It's a counter-cultural message, but when the "it's all about you" commercialism begins to ring hollow, we start searching for something more. I found it in a community of faith.

I FOUND A SENSE OF BELONGING

I talk to churches a lot about the difference between worship attendance, membership and belonging. Too often we see all three of these as synonymous, but they're not. I wanted to find a group of people passionate about things that mattered to me, and who would make a space for me, regardless of whether we agreed on everything, or if I gave enough money, or if I had signed my name in some official book.

For a lot of churches, that affirmation of belonging comes after you commit to membership as part of an institution. The problem for me was that I didn't really care about their institution; I only cared about the people. I came to understand the value of some institutions along the way, but young adults don't inherently trust institutions the way previous generations have, and we don't care nearly as much about preserving them either.

Had my initial experiences with Christianity after my hiatus been with groups that had nice buildings and big budgets, I might not have stuck around. The fact that they had little to offer other than themselves was exactly what I was looking for.

I'll close this piece out with a short list of all the things that didn't mater so much in my decision to come back to Christianity, but which many churches assume are critical to their transformation:

* I didn't care that much about the preaching.

* It didn't matter to me that there wasn't an elaborate music program.

* I was all right with the fact that there weren't tons of small groups to instantly "plug in" to. In fact, I just wanted to hang out with people I liked and who cared about me.

* I didn't care what denomination the church was a part of.

* I didn't care about whether they had doctrines or creeds they all agreed on.

* I didn't care if the carpet was nice, the garden was manicured or the bathrooms smelled like lilacs.

All of those things are nice, I guess. I'm sure they're important to someone. But I can hear great sermons online. I can download more great music to my iPod than I can listen to in a lifetime. I can join a fancy country club and feel like I'm a part of some fancy, exclusive group. What I can't necessarily get in other parts of my life is authenticity.

Everything else was nice, but it wasn't what brought me back.

My girl and I started going back to church this past October - in part because we wanted that "sense of belonging" the article's author mentioned. Both of us, as professional musicians, have been in many churches and synagogues over the years as “holy for hire” vocal soloists - come in, sing a copy of songs or augment the choir and get your paycheck. My faith was my own and personal. Now we actually “belong” – and we realize the many positive things that brings us , far more things than the negatives of belonging to a church. Of course, it may help that we attend an Episcopalian church in a New England city, and not an Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestant church in a small town in the South or the Midwest.

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Young Christians are leaving churches and some athe... - 4/12/2013 1:00:45 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Genesis was written by Moses

When you have to fall back on ignorant fundamentalist arguments, it's time to either give up or get a TV show.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

In that you did not contradict me

I contradicted you twice, actually, and this makes the third time.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/12/2013 1:27:42 PM >

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 40
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