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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:28:54 PM

papassion

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
War is paid for on the backs of taxpayers.. This article is wrong.. its not America that needs war, its the 1%ers that own war profitier corps and profit from war that need it..

As a first level analysis, correct. There is, however, this question of a "war of acquisition" to fill the empty pockets of Uncle Sam thereby bolstering our whole economy. And, of course, if we have a good old' fashioned war perhaps people will forget that the bankers are STILL stealing money from us left and right and STILL being given free passes by the administration and STILL not being prosecuted. So there may be some political expedien this ncy to going out and slaughtering another few hundred thousand people.

I think there are other ways of bolstering the economy rather than invading countries and killing people.. better ways.. such as having forgiveable student loans for those Americans with the brains to go to school for STEM jobs.. and second, to realize that the immigrant entrepreurs have a great impact on jobs.. and encourage them (instead of discourage them) to set up in the US..

"Immigrants founded or cofounded almost half of 50 top venture-backed companies in the United States"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/20/us-venture-immigration-idUSTRE7BJ1WK20111220

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-10-02/why-immigrant-entrepreneurship-is-stalling

Libs love to use articles like this to justify open borders. The article says we need SKILLED immigrants. We also have to look at reality. We are in a global economy now. Lets say the world is a giant mall. (because it is!) Each country has a store in this "mall" selling goods they make, priced at the cost to make plus a reasonable profit It won't take very long to see the US store prices are way higher than the other "stores", and to add insult to injury, the people in the US "store" are buying their stuff from the foreign "stores!"

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 21

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 2:30:37 PM

mnottertail

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cons love to say shit that don't contain any facts and don't make any sense.

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Post #: 22

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 3:02:19 PM

tj444

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Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
War is paid for on the backs of taxpayers.. This article is wrong.. its not America that needs war, its the 1%ers that own war profitier corps and profit from war that need it..

As a first level analysis, correct. There is, however, this question of a "war of acquisition" to fill the empty pockets of Uncle Sam thereby bolstering our whole economy. And, of course, if we have a good old' fashioned war perhaps people will forget that the bankers are STILL stealing money from us left and right and STILL being given free passes by the administration and STILL not being prosecuted. So there may be some political expedien this ncy to going out and slaughtering another few hundred thousand people.

I think there are other ways of bolstering the economy rather than invading countries and killing people.. better ways.. such as having forgiveable student loans for those Americans with the brains to go to school for STEM jobs.. and second, to realize that the immigrant entrepreurs have a great impact on jobs.. and encourage them (instead of discourage them) to set up in the US..

"Immigrants founded or cofounded almost half of 50 top venture-backed companies in the United States"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/20/us-venture-immigration-idUSTRE7BJ1WK20111220

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-10-02/why-immigrant-entrepreneurship-is-stalling

Libs love to use articles like this to justify open borders. The article says we need SKILLED immigrants. We also have to look at reality. We are in a global economy now. Lets say the world is a giant mall. (because it is!) Each country has a store in this "mall" selling goods they make, priced at the cost to make plus a reasonable profit It won't take very long to see the US store prices are way higher than the other "stores", and to add insult to injury, the people in the US "store" are buying their stuff from the foreign "stores!"

I never said anything about an open border, prove that I have ever said such a thing.. I specified immigrant entrepreneurs and did not include any others.. If someone wants to move to the US to start a business it is very difficult, time consuming and there are very limited options.. the easiest is to come with a big bag of money ($1 million) for an EB5 visa. If you dont have that much then your most likely option is to be hired by a US company willing to offer you a job and wait for you to get a visa.. It would be much better to have a special program for immigrant entrepreneurs (who dont want to take any job from Americans) is to allow those with less investment capital in so they can start a business right away (& create a certain number of jobs in a certain period of time).. I hope the Start-up Visa thingie has that kinda program but I am not sure what stage its at or what changes have been made to it..

I love how conservatives accuse me (or insinuate) that I am a Liberal and Liberals accuse me (or insinuate) that I am a conservative!.. I am neither.. Did you also happen to miss the part I said about forgiveable student loans for American students that could fill STEM jobs?

< Message edited by tj444 -- 4/17/2013 3:03:00 PM >

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 3:36:56 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'd be interested to see any evidence this fuckwit cited in the OP has that either of the current wars are stimulating the economy rather than wasting tax revenues, myself.

Read the article that I linked. He says it is the wind down of the current wars that are contributing to slow growth.

The slow growth has nothing to do with the initial attempts to run said wars on credit leading to a catastrophic financial collapse three or four years back, then?

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(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 24

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 3:40:51 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

War is paid for on the backs of taxpayers.. This article is wrong.. its not America that needs war, its the 1%ers that own war profitier corps and profit from war that need it...........

Worth repeating.

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Post #: 25

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 3:53:33 PM

MrRodgers

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'War is a Racket' Gen. Smedley Butler. America has been at war almost continuously since 1898, the Spanish/American war. He writes that the US went into China for 'Standard Oil' and also went into Mexico for 'Standard Oil.' Does anybody really know what that means ?

One could argue that the CIA created a coup to take down both the duly and fairly elected govts. of both Iran and Iraq back in the day...for 'Standard Oil.' It's about American economic hegemony not about stimulating the economy.

If these wars were to stimulate society, they failed, they stimulate profits...NOT economy. 2001-2008, All of that deficit spending and warmongering and it produced the worst 2 term (pres.) on creating new jobs. (less than 7 million)

...it did however produce $billions in profits and we are in a slump now kinkroids, yet what do we see ? Three or four new highs for the DOW ? Yet we still have 8-10% unemployment. The writing has been on the wall for years and 'the people' refuse to read it. Unless you want to put on a uniform, war does not...serve society or the economy.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 26

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 5:07:56 PM

FrostedFlake

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From: Centralia, Washington
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The article is nonsense based on nonsense.

Reality check : War is about killing and destroying. It is about taking things. And it is about lies that allege to justify.

Every dollar spent on war is gone. Even if the gun is not fired, the warship is not used in combat, or the missile rots in a silo. The money is gone. It is not that there is no profit. The principle is not there anymore. It is wasted. War is not an investment, like building a railroad, a ferry, a bridge, a school or a hospital would be. War is not something that can be used, like a solar panel, or a truck and trailer or a cruise ship or a nail. War is an act of destruction.

But don't take my word for it. Take it from one of the most successful generals The United States has ever been led by.

Ikes' Farewell Address, in writing.

C-Span Video Record of the speech, complete.

The money quote. For the impatient.

The take home point is, if spending on war stimulates the economy, then spending on anything else will also stimulate the economy and instead of destroying something with our efforts we will have built something instead. Advocating war for the economic benefits of war is the act of lying. It is folly. It is crime. It is both economically and morally bankrupt.

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Post #: 27

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 5:28:16 PM

erieangel

Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
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I agree.

I love how the neocons would go to war in a heart beat in the name of "stimulating the economy" but they refuse to rebuild America's roads, bridges, update our electrical grid and provide high speed internet access to rural areas.

That liberal agenda would stimulate the economy more than any war. It would also put thousands of people back to work; getting those same thousands of people off food stamps and other safety net programs; having those same thousands of people PAYING taxes.

And somebody on the right thinks it would be better if we went out and shot up another country????

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

Post #: 28

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 5:35:14 PM

LookieNoNookie

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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

While I agree that wars can stimulate the economy, this appears to be an argument for economic growth to be a sound reason for war and that has got to be the most stupid fucking idea I have ever heard.

As someone who's been against America, building empire for many years and who has lost a child to one of these bullshit wars, This author needs to shut the fuck up or get a few of his buddies and go invade Idaho or some shit.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

I suspect (I could be wrong) what he was arguing, although not terribly effectively was....the machine needs to be fed. And now that the machine is being somewhat put on a diet, is there something that can fill the gap?

I would argue that, as Ron Paul suggested, the reason they're in our shit is, because, we're in theirs.

And so...possibly now we need a new moon shot, globally except that, now all nations need to participate....with one obvious exception.....we need to do it here.

On Earth.

For Earthlings.

Once we figure out how to stop killing other Earthlings (via an international effort to solve our global issues)...we can shoot for the stars.

Together.

All this religious shit (which I subscribe to in my own manner)...is fucking killing us.

And you know what?

So are the fuckfaces that make bombs, satellite devices to protect me from you....and borders.

It's a crazy gawdammned world.

We gotta all quit shitting in each others beer.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 4/17/2013 5:36:06 PM >

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Post #: 29

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 6:32:00 PM

DesideriScuri

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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I'd be interested to see any evidence this fuckwit cited in the OP has that either of the current wars are stimulating the economy rather than wasting tax revenues, myself.

Read the article that I linked. He says it is the wind down of the current wars that are contributing to slow growth.

Technically, that is correct. Since Government spending is part of GDP calculations, reducing Government spending would have a
negative effect on GDP. Not all Government spending effects the economy the same way, so it's not surprising that Government drawdown has an effect. But, the bigger question is, how much effect and is that a bad thing?

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Post #: 30

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/17/2013 7:06:53 PM

LizDeluxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
The article is nonsense based on nonsense.

The article was a satire of those who think war stimulates the economy.

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Post #: 31

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/18/2013 5:41:53 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2010-07-27/wall_street/30041674_1_wall-street-becker-capitalism

Paul is near the end of his synapse.

Might be. There is always a lot of criticism of his columns, however. Sometimes the mad man sees more clearly than the sane who feed each other what they want to hear.

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Post #: 32

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/18/2013 5:44:26 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Is Forbes & company upset that the US has changed its war tactics?.. instead of actually starting wars they are getting permission from various countries for drone attacks.. its a cheaper & less controversial to the American public, etc.. There are also ways to pressure other countries.. as the US has recently done to Iran, those sanctions have had quite an impact..

Drones are a whole new industry. They will be an important stimulus as local communities get DHS permission to fly their own.

yea, i know they will be increasingly used in the US (for better or worse.. ) but thats not exactly for war, is it?

Correct. Tiz not. But like the space industry . . . war breeds new technologies and new technologies breed future wars it seems.

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RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/18/2013 5:51:51 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'd be interested to see any evidence this fuckwit cited in the OP has that either of the current wars are stimulating the economy rather than wasting tax revenues, myself.

Read the article that I linked. He says it is the wind down of the current wars that are contributing to slow growth.

The slow growth has nothing to do with the initial attempts to run said wars on credit leading to a catastrophic financial collapse three or four years back, then?

Oh yes. Defense spending shot way up, the Fed kept interest rates relatively low, and we had a liars loan house buying/flipping orgy. It was all jolly good for five years. Now we are paying the piper as in your country we are flirting with austerity cutting defense jobs and public employment.

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Post #: 34

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/18/2013 6:01:40 AM

vincentML

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quote:

The take home point is, if spending on war stimulates the economy, then spending on anything else will also stimulate the economy and instead of destroying something with our efforts we will have built something instead. Advocating war for the economic benefits of war is the act of lying. It is folly. It is crime. It is both economically and morally bankrupt.

Paul was not advocating war, Flake. He was recounting history. Tongue in cheek. Neither am I advocating war. Some of our war hawk politicians should take a clue from FDR:

"I have seen war. I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen men coughing out their gassed lungs. I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen 200 limping, exhausted men come out of line — the survivors of a regiment of 1,000 that went forward 48 hours before. I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives. I hate war." 14th August 1936

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/18/2013 6:02:03 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/18/2013 6:04:30 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Oh yes. Defense spending shot way up, the Fed kept interest rates relatively low, and we had a liars loan house buying/flipping orgy. It was all jolly good for five years. Now we are paying the piper as in your country we are flirting with austerity cutting defense jobs and public employment.

This is the Catch-22 we find when Government is relied on to be the employer. I know we need Government employees and that Government will always employ a shitload of people, necessarily. And, Government will consume a shitload, necessarily. But, when the economy ends up relying on Government, there is going to be a problem eventually, especially if Government spending is the primary driver of growth.

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Post #: 36

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/18/2013 6:05:37 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
The article is nonsense based on nonsense.

The article was a satire of those who think war stimulates the economy.

If you read page 2 you will find it is not a satire.

(in reply to LizDeluxe)

Post #: 37

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/19/2013 8:52:49 AM

Moonhead

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That's the terrible thing about neoconservatives: some of what they come out with is so transcendentally absurd you can have trouble telling whether they're serious or not.

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Post #: 38

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/19/2013 7:44:36 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

America needs a new war? For the economy to survive? Job market to revive? Capitalism thrive? Maybe. Here’s why:

Complete bollocks, start to finish.

The author is completely devoid of any knowledge of economic history whatsoever.

The US went into a serious depression in 1919 as result of WWI. It didn't last as long as The Great Depression which is why no one of a political bent (such as this idiot author) or his readers is even aware of that. Nor are they aware of the serious economic depression in all of Europe after that war.

The US was substantially out of The Great Depression by early 1937, but a too early tightening of the money supply caused a slight relapse. But even after that the situation by 1939 had recovered to beyond pre-crash 1927.

The aftermath of WWII left all of Europe as much if not more economically devastated as physically devastated.

Some would argue that five or more years of rationing after the hostilities have ceased would not be the best indication of war being a "boon to the economy."

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Post #: 39

RE: Does America need another war to stimulate the econ... - 4/19/2013 8:17:55 PM

BamaD

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quote:

While I share your sentiments, Michael, why take it out on the messenger? Doesn't the history support him?

No it does not.
The war brought use out of the depression but by 43 wage and price controls were needed to keep inflation from destroying the economy.
In WWI The blow that finished Germany was that their economy colapsed.

With war you get full employment and the increase in revenue but you qickly get the devestating inflation, see Vietnam.

This is one of those "everybody knows" things that is just dead wrong.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 4/19/2013 8:19:35 PM >

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Post #: 40

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