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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 6:49:52 PM

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quote:

Isn't this really just the latest in a long series of signs from above pointing out the Catholic Church is soon to evaporate like the remnants of a childish dream?

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, which I left 23 years ago, but predicting its demise strikes me as premature.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 7:22:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Isn't this really just the latest in a long series of signs from above pointing out the Catholic Church is soon to evaporate like the remnants of a childish dream?

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, which I left 23 years ago, but predicting its demise strikes me as premature.

Everyone's gotta believe in something.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 8:35:10 PM

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quote:

Everyone's gotta believe in something.

LOL! Very true.

It's just that the RCC, for good or ill, has shown some serious staying power over the centuries.

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it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 8:36:22 PM

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Are you honestly surprised that the atheists will find a way to make what he said a bad thing? I believe whole heartedly in what dcnovice said,

quote:

could decide who was saved and that God's embrace included anyone living a life of conscience.

I firmly believe that people should all be entitled to their beliefs, but the problem I have with atheists (especially two specific posters here) is that it seems in order to "embrace" their beliefs, they need to be insulting and nasty.

Some people just don't have the concept of meeting in the middle or that good deeds are the right way to live. But as the pope said, God loves them anyway. If they find that insulting and it makes them angry, I guess we can just call it a bonus.

Oh, and I abandoned the Catholic faith more than 20 years ago. Visited the Vatican this past November though and the Sistine Chapel is absolutely breathtaking.

(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 9:22:23 PM

kdsub

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To me it is a welcome sentiment that has always matched my feelings on God, religion, atheists’ and redemption.

I have always believed those who live their lives with charity towards and love for their fellow man will pass Gods test for redemption. It should make no difference if they are not a member of an organized religion or even believe in a God. Whatever the afterlife may hold all will share equally according to their actions toward others and not according to what religion and beliefs towards God they may have held.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/25/2013 9:56:00 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 9:45:13 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Everyone's gotta believe in something.

LOL! Very true.

It's just that the RCC, for good or ill, has shown some serious staying power over the centuries.

There is an old joke. A priest confronts a woman who is outspoken against the church, it is apparent she hates it, and he starts speaking to her and she goes off on a tirade about all the ills in the church, the corruption, forgetting who they are, women's roles, etc....and he sits and listens, and after hearing her, tells her "madam, while I understand your anger, your one woman crusade to destroy the church won't work. After all,the leadership has been trying to destroy it for nearly 2000 years, and have failed, what makes you think you can?"

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 9:55:03 PM

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I don't particularly care for the idea that Atheists or anyone needs God's redemption or not, I could go on a long theological discussion about what that means, but I find this interesting for a number of reasons. The last couple of Popes, especially Pete the Polish prince, were all hung up on doctrinal purity, they were all heated up about the idea that Catholicism is all about everyone believing the same thing, that there can be no discussion or debate, and they silences theologians or anyone questioning the orthodoxy they loved to promote, they promoted the idea that the Catholic church was the only true church, had the only access to God, and otherwise made themselves look like assholes, further alienating themselves from most Catholics in the west, especially the US (cafeteria Catholics). Benedict was actually thinking it might be better to jettison those who won't accept the who enchilada and have a church composed only of the true believers.....all you have to do is look at the order of nuns that Der Pope and his goons went after, whose crime was they spent their time helping the poor and sick and old, and weren't running around yelling and screaming about abortion and same sex marriage (which the last couple of Popes have seemingly boiled down Catholicism to, being against abortion and gays, all the rest is triviata).....

This guy seems to be changing the tenor of the church, by saying how you act is more important than what you believe. This could be interesting, for example, Pete the Polish prince and Der Pope, his successor, both refused to act against the Bishops involved in the pedophilia and other scandals, because the guys who did that stuff were ideological hard liners, who supported the Pope unquestioningly, so they got away with giant moral transgressions. This Pope seems to be saying believing the right things isn't necessarily the Catholic way, and it could mean (I hope), he is going to start clearing out the ideologically pure but morally flawed hierarchy, and also will build bridges to people of faith and not, rather than sneering at them.

(in reply to njlauren)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:01:41 PM

kdsub

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I agree completely ...We can only hope and pray njlauren and thank you for putting into words feelings I seem to have trouble transferring to coherent prose.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/25/2013 10:02:54 PM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to njlauren)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:13:38 PM

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quote:

I firmly believe that people should all be entitled to their beliefs, but the problem I have with atheists (especially two specific posters here) is that it seems in order to "embrace" their beliefs, they need to be insulting and nasty.

Some people just don't have the concept of meeting in the middle or that good deeds are the right way to live. But as the pope said, God loves them anyway. If they find that insulting and it makes them angry, I guess we can just call it a bonus.

Have I told you lately that I enjoy reading what you have to say?
Happy Memorial Day weekend!

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/25/2013 10:15:41 PM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:15:22 PM

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quote:

There is an old joke. A priest confronts a woman who is outspoken against the church, it is apparent she hates it, and he starts speaking to her and she goes off on a tirade about all the ills in the church, the corruption, forgetting who they are, women's roles, etc....and he sits and listens, and after hearing her, tells her "madam, while I understand your anger, your one woman crusade to destroy the church won't work. After all,the leadership has been trying to destroy it for nearly 2000 years, and have failed, what makes you think you can?"

I love it! Totally adding it to my repertoire; my devout but critical Catholic aunts will howl with laughter.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to njlauren)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:26:42 PM

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quote:

This guy seems to be changing the tenor of the church, by saying how you act is more important than what you believe.

He does. And as someone who thinks symbols matter, I appreciate his taste for simplicity and human connection. I'm not sure he'll prove any less doctrinally conservative than his predecessors, though.

You may have seen the side-by-side images of Benedict and Francis in the audience hall. I found them quite striking.

Things that caught my eye:

-- Gold throne to simple chair.
-- Fussy, ornate vestments to simple white cassock.
-- Fancy red shoes to ordinary black ones.
-- Red-carpeted dias to simple wooden platform.
-- Prepared text to no notes.
-- Speaking to listening.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to njlauren)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:26:54 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled by why the pope's words have garnered so much attention.

When I went to Catholic school, we were taught that anyone who didn't believe in God (in the Christian sense) would not be going to heaven.

This is a wide departure. I'm no longer Catholic, so maybe things have changed already, but seeing as I don't follow the religion anymore, this is definitely the first I'm hearing that one can simply be a good person in order to gain eternal salvation.

Not just Catholic. My father was a minister of the Free Methodist church. It was made abundantly clear to us that if we didn't believe in God, we would suffer in agony in eternal fire and failure.

If anyone's not familiar and is curious:

"The Free Methodist Church is a Methodist Christian denomination within the holiness movement. It is evangelical in nature and has its roots in the Arminian-Wesleyan tradition.

In doctrine, Free Methodists’ beliefs are the standard beliefs of evangelical, Arminian Protestantism, with distinctive emphasis on the teaching of entire sanctification as held by John Wesley, to whom the Free Methodist Church traces its origins."

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:30:47 PM

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I like how this atheist handled Wolf`s question and showed how she wasn`t hostile toward god fearing folks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LP3Zs_V_BQ

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:35:08 PM

kdsub

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quote:

I'm not sure he'll prove any less doctrinally conservative than his predecessors, though.

I agree except I believe this Pope wants to include sinners in his church rather then brand them. An important and welcome difference to me.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 10:36:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

There is an old joke. A priest confronts a woman who is outspoken against the church, it is apparent she hates it, and he starts speaking to her and she goes off on a tirade about all the ills in the church, the corruption, forgetting who they are, women's roles, etc....and he sits and listens, and after hearing her, tells her "madam, while I understand your anger, your one woman crusade to destroy the church won't work. After all,the leadership has been trying to destroy it for nearly 2000 years, and have failed, what makes you think you can?"

I love it! Totally adding it to my repertoire; my devout but critical Catholic aunts will howl with laughter.

I wonder very seriously, do your devout but critical Aunts suppose they NEED to go to church and specifically go to the Catholic church in order to have a relationship with the deity? I wonder if they have ever even momentarily considered the obvious alternative of doing without the spiritual guidance of men in whom they have no faith. Do you suppose, now that the Pope has handed out to everyone the PRIZE the church has always offered only to those who BELIEVE, do you suppose that they might?

When the church says in as many words, you don't need it, shouldn't they? After all, rejecting church is not the same as rejecting God.

Perhaps you might ask them.

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
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"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 11:00:20 PM

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quote:

I wonder very seriously, do your devout but critical Aunts suppose they NEED to go to church and specifically go to the Catholic church in order to have a relationship with the deity? I wonder if they have ever even momentarily considered the obvious alternative of doing without the spiritual guidance of men in whom they have no faith. Do you suppose, now that the Pope has handed out to everyone the PRIZE the church has always offered only to those who BELIEVE, do you suppose that they might?

When the church says in as many words, you don't need it, shouldn't they? After all, rejecting church is not the same as rejecting God.

This started out sounding like a sincere question, but it quickly reveals itself as a hostile cross-examination with a far-from-hidden agenda. Not gonna bite.

quote:

Perhaps you might ask them.

Perhaps. Though I don't see a pressing need to interrogate my family with a stranger's leading questions.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to FrostedFlake)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 11:30:14 PM

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I suppose I should be happy that the Pope has pronounced that I have a chance of getting into heaven.

However I find it odd that this is even an issue. If the Christian God is all compassionate (as it has been represented for two milennia) then the idea of punishing (by denying them access to heaven) a person who has lived a good life without believing seems superfluous. It contradicts my understanding of what compassion is.

So, from where I sit, it's really odd that this is an issue, and even odder that it took the Catholic Church a little over 2,000 years to realise this.

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/25/2013 11:50:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I wonder very seriously, do your devout but critical Aunts suppose they NEED to go to church and specifically go to the Catholic church in order to have a relationship with the deity? I wonder if they have ever even momentarily considered the obvious alternative of doing without the spiritual guidance of men in whom they have no faith. Do you suppose, now that the Pope has handed out to everyone the PRIZE the church has always offered only to those who BELIEVE, do you suppose that they might?

When the church says in as many words, you don't need it, shouldn't they? After all, rejecting church is not the same as rejecting God.

This started out sounding like a sincere question, but it quickly reveals itself as a hostile cross-examination with a far-from-hidden agenda. Not gonna bite.

quote:

Perhaps you might ask them.

Perhaps. Though I don't see a pressing need to interrogate my family with a stranger's leading questions.

Well certainly, the agenda is out in the open. But I didn't intend to seem hostile. Nor am I able to see it, now that you point it out.

I apologize. To You, DCNovice, and to the general audience.

_____________________________

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"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to dcnovice)

RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 12:14:17 AM

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I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the existence of a compassionate deity in no way assures that every snarky twit gets a shot at Heaven. The issue being addressed is faith versus works, and the Pope is siding with James. It's an astonishingly radical postion to take, because church doctrine in the matter has for ages been based on the Epistles of Paul.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/26/2013 12:58:44 AM >

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RE: Yes, even Atheists... - 5/26/2013 2:27:36 AM

egern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Simply put the Pope can show his views up his backside. Let me know who empowered him to tell people who dont believe in God that we are still his children.

Its akin to the Aga Khan telling you you are all children of his God, that will go down well in the States.

It his job, don't you know?

(in reply to Politesub53)

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