A National Service Obligation?

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TheHeretic -> A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 9:39:36 PM)
At the link is an article from General Stanley McCrystal, calling for a system of universal national service. I like the idea. It's something that goes far beyond the bounds of drafting people into the Army. In the vision I have, our military would still be composed of people who choose to enter the armed forces, instead of serving in another capacity. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324809804578511220613299186.html He wraps up with this (my bold) quote: Universal national service would surely face obstacles. But America is too big, and our challenges too expansive, for small ideas. To help stem the high-school dropout crisis, to conserve rivers and parks, to prepare for and respond to disasters, to fight poverty and, perhaps most important, to instill in all Americans a sense of civic duty, the nation needs all its young people to serve. Whatever the details of a specific plan, the objective must be a cultural shift that makes service an expected rite of citizenship. Thoughts?

DaddySatyr -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:00:05 PM)
Heya, Rich! Thank you for posting this (Boy, are we gonna disagree!) There's is no doubt in my mind that just about everyone (I guess sociopaths would be excluded) can benefit from some form of service. I believe that just about all people would benefit from some "humble pie" being on their menu and one of the best paths to humility is through selfless service. We agree on that. My issue is with it being compulsory. You know how I feel about the federal government to begin with but, beyond that; I'm a libertarian and I don't think that compulsory service is the answer. If need be, I will tell a personal story, later but, I want to see how the thread drifts. Suffice it to say that I do think we need to find a way to encourage people into national service. Again, I think national service is a good idea; I just shudder at it being compulsory. Peace and comfort, Michael

Aswad -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:08:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Thoughts? Yes: unless you provide a reasonable alternative to citizenship, don't do this; without the possibility of opt-out, it's slavery, pure and simple. It's why I refused the draft, when I actually wanted to become an officer. If you back me into a corner, I fight back. If you don't, I volunteer. That goes for a lot of the people you want, so it also makes some pragmatic sense not to go that route. IWYW, — Aswad.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:10:40 PM)
Compulsory national service outside of a true crisis is a dangerous thing.

erieangel -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:10:53 PM)
So long as it is a choice among military service, something along the lines of "Americorps" or community work for a year or 2 prior to college, I see no problem compulsory civic duty for young people. But along with compulsory civic duty will be the need to provide housing for those who need it, a small stipend and living expenses. This could add up to an expensive proposition. While I can see the benefits of such a program in the long term, instilling a sense of social and community awareness into the next generations, I don't see the current tax payers being willing foot the bill.

TheHeretic -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:13:04 PM)
Well, we'll see what common ground there might be, along the way, then. [:)] The McCrystal piece did show up conveniently, didn't it? Tomorrow is going to be busy, and I'm heading off the 'puter, but I'll look forward to getting back to this.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:15:16 PM)
And what the heck is the "rite" of citizenship? Having been born here in the United States, I and those who have been Naturalized do have a "Right" to citizen ship but in a true and free Republics, one should not have to go through a "rite" to secure or establish it!

DaddySatyr -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:22:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy And what the heck is the "rite" of citizenship? Having been born here in the United States, I and those who have been Naturalized do have a "Right" to citizen ship but in a true and free Republics, one should not have to go through a "rite" to secure or establish it! I think that term was meant kind of along the lines of "rite of passage". I don't think it was meant as "a hoop to be jumped through in order to be a citizen". Peace and comfort, Michael

Owner59 -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:34:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy Compulsory national service outside of a true crisis is a dangerous thing. This.... But, if one wants to serve society and earn some credit along the way......AmeriCorps

BitaTruble -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/30/2013 10:50:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic Whatever the details of a specific plan, the objective must be a cultural shift that makes service an expected rite of citizenship. Thoughts? Well, the devil is in the details though, isn't it. We bring a kid into the world, raise him, educate her, blah, blah, blah.. then force them into service in order to become a citizen of a place they never asked to be. If they refuse? When push comes to shove.. how's this going to be enforced? Yep. The devil is in the details. You can put me down in the 'I don't fucking think so' category. [:D]

joether -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 12:22:31 AM)
Volunteering for service in the community is not something that should benefit one's wallet or ambitions. Making it a requirement will only drive the grand majority to do the least amount of good or work. Yes, the idea sounds great on the drawing board but executing it will result in failure. Recently at a charity event that needed volunteers to make the whole operation successful, those that volunteered on their own gave quite a bit and really helped the organization. Those that were there due to a high school obligation of 100 hours of community services, did the bare minimal of actions/words. Heck, it was like they were going to their own execution rather than something that helps their community as a whole. Volunteering for the military is something hard to express in real terms like coinage and property. For the majority of soldiers/sailors/airmen, it helps them in future work prospects, builds self confidence and join a unique fraternity of other fellow Americans. But when this nation made it a requirement to join the military, those very citizen soldiers were sent to a foreign land to fight an enemy that had no way of hurting the nation directly. The said part, it wasn't the rich kids that went to 'Nam, but the poor ones. An those that went there, did not do it for the flag, the nation, the politicians, or even their home state. But for themselves, and their buddies to live long enough to get the hell out of there! I suspect those soldiers that were drafted were REALLY not jolly about assaulting an enemy position just to make some @sshole back in the states happy about requiring young Americans to serve in the military. You can not devise a system in which ALL Americans are treated equally in the military by being required to join for citizenship. Money talks. Politics talks. The influential, powerful, and resourceful ones will make sure their kids get cushy, non-threating, but quickly-promoting jobs; rather than frontline, very hazardous if not deadly action. An if they, the rich and powerful can side-step the whole thing for their kids, why should anyone else take it as a serious and credible 'rite of passage into adulthood'?

eulero83 -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 2:43:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Volunteering for service in the community is not something that should benefit one's wallet or ambitions. Making it a requirement will only drive the grand majority to do the least amount of good or work. Yes, the idea sounds great on the drawing board but executing it will result in failure. Recently at a charity event that needed volunteers to make the whole operation successful, those that volunteered on their own gave quite a bit and really helped the organization. Those that were there due to a high school obligation of 100 hours of community services, did the bare minimal of actions/words. Heck, it was like they were going to their own execution rather than something that helps their community as a whole. Volunteering for the military is something hard to express in real terms like coinage and property. For the majority of soldiers/sailors/airmen, it helps them in future work prospects, builds self confidence and join a unique fraternity of other fellow Americans. But when this nation made it a requirement to join the military, those very citizen soldiers were sent to a foreign land to fight an enemy that had no way of hurting the nation directly. The said part, it wasn't the rich kids that went to 'Nam, but the poor ones. An those that went there, did not do it for the flag, the nation, the politicians, or even their home state. But for themselves, and their buddies to live long enough to get the hell out of there! I suspect those soldiers that were drafted were REALLY not jolly about assaulting an enemy position just to make some @sshole back in the states happy about requiring young Americans to serve in the military. You can not devise a system in which ALL Americans are treated equally in the military by being required to join for citizenship. Money talks. Politics talks. The influential, powerful, and resourceful ones will make sure their kids get cushy, non-threating, but quickly-promoting jobs; rather than frontline, very hazardous if not deadly action. An if they, the rich and powerful can side-step the whole thing for their kids, why should anyone else take it as a serious and credible 'rite of passage into adulthood'? I agree with this, I live in a country that used conscription till 10 years ago, it was just a lost year based on boredom, hazing, alchoolism. By the way we can't declare war for our costitution so maybe in the usa you need some cheep meat to slaughter.

SadistDave -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 3:18:11 AM)
I've read about this from McCrystal before. His idea of compulsory service is not restricted to the military. It also includes social and infrastructure programs. Sort of a "You will serve. Do you want to serve with a gun, a broom, or a hammer? Will you be a soldier? Will you cook meals and clean gutters for the elderly? Will you build homes for the homeless? Will you sit behind a computer and help people find jobs?" kind of a thing. The rite of passage comment is not as ominous as some people seem to believe. His reference to it is along the lines of buying your first car, renting your first apartment, or graduating from college, which are rites of adulthood. His rite of citizenship refers to something common to most people that just about everyone can relate to. If everyone serves then it becomes easier to find common ground with people who come from vastly different backgrounds. He's a General. His model is military because that's his background. He imagines that having everyone serving in some way that America will be less fractured because, like the military, everyone would serve next to people from different racial, economic, religious, political, and educational backgrounds. It makes people more relateable to be able to connect through a shared experience. . It's an interesting idea actually. Imagine yourself as a young person graduating from high school or college. You have a basic education but no experience. Spending a compulsory couple of years working in the right field could give a lot of people practical experience that would make them more likely to get jobs they trained for. It also levels inequalities in the job market considerably because everyone would have the opportunity to gain some kind of useful skills and gain experience a variety of fields regardless of any social or economic factors. And really, the programs don't even need to be run by the federal government or require full time participation to be beneficial. There are thousands of existing private non-profit programs that would also benefit from having a ready work force. There are also thousands of state, county, and local programs that would benefit from intern programs that give people a chance to gain experience. For example; a program as simple as reading to children in the hospital for 5 hours a week would be valuable and practical experience for young people wanting to work in social services, become teachers, run daycare centers, pediatric medicine... or maybe just become better parents later in life. In the process, the common good is served. I actually like the idea, but it's never going to happen. As ideas go, it's a pretty good one. As reality goes, the whole concept is open to all kinds of abuse, especially if it's done at the federal level. Also, (as some posts here show) some people will be against it just because it would be mandatory. Ironically, some of these posters have had no problem in the past with the notion that their favorite ideas ought to be compulsory for everyone, whether it is mandatory acceptance of their favorite social opinions or mandatory participation in their favorite government programs. -SD-

DesideriScuri -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 5:00:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr <snip> There's is no doubt in my mind that just about everyone (I guess sociopaths would be excluded) can benefit from some form of service. I believe that just about all people would benefit from some "humble pie" being on their menu and one of the best paths to humility is through selfless service. <snip> Again, I think national service is a good idea; I just shudder at it being compulsory. Peace and comfort, Michael This.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 5:31:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr I think that term was meant kind of along the lines of "rite of passage". I don't think it was meant as "a hoop to be jumped through in order to be a citizen". I dunno... "the objective must be a cultural shift that makes service an expected rite of citizenship." It seems pretty clear to me.

Lucylastic -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 5:32:43 AM)
will this mean amending the constitution?

RottenJohnny -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 5:57:58 AM)
I vote "no" on this one. While I agree that there could be a lot of benefits to it, IMO compulsory service violates the very intent of having a free society. Whether we approve of it or not, you should have the right to be a completely selfish, disconnected, ignorant, and/or useless individual if you want to be one.

TheHeretic -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 6:40:57 AM)
FR It's nice to see that there is some interest in the topic, besides just Michael and I picking up from where we left it on another thread. Just quickly for FDD, when I bolded the bit about a "rite of citizenship," I was interpreting it as Michael and SadistDave have. Serving would be seen in our culture as a normal part of growing into adulthood, as a member of society. Lots of good red meat here already.

Hillwilliam -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 6:50:42 AM)
On the outside, a national service obligation looks like a good idea. When you think about how you would implement it (with the government in charge and all), wouldn't it be something close to.......................socialism?

DaddySatyr -> RE: A National Service Obligation? (5/31/2013 7:29:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave And really, the programs don't even need to be run by the federal government or require full time participation to be beneficial. There are thousands of existing private non-profit programs that would also benefit from having a ready work force. There are also thousands of state, county, and local programs that would benefit from intern programs that give people a chance to gain experience. For example; a program as simple as reading to children in the hospital for 5 hours a week would be valuable and practical experience for young people wanting to work in social services, become teachers, run daycare centers, pediatric medicine... or maybe just become better parents later in life. In the process, the common good is served. -SD- I like most of Dave's posts and, even on this, I think we agree, essentially but I'd like to "pick a scab" (sort of) with this paragraph. You use the term "intern programs" and "thousands of existing private non-profit programs that would also benefit from having a ready work force". I think the meat of the issue here is: from whence does that work force come? I agree that the ideas being discussed would serve the common good. I believe it would help people as individuals. Now, how do we get them to "volunteer"? I don't have an answer, per se, either. I have some ideas but some of them are a little goofy (by my own admission). I think where the rubber meets the road on this issue really is the "compulsory" part of the equation. That just rubs me the wrong way and makes my mind harken back to ... ohhhh ... Sparta ... Rome ... Germany, circa 1942 or so. Alright, not exact parallels but, you get my point. I think there has got to be some ways to incentivize (is that even a fucking word?) volunteerism. I don't know what they are but, there just has to be a way. Unfortunately, as I type those words, I realize it would require some pretty sweeping cultural changes and those take time. Peace and comfort, Michael Edited because I'm anal-retentive about writing.

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