RE: A few questions about gun control... (Full Version)

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MasterCaneman -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/2/2013 9:57:16 PM)

I love the STEN and the M3A1 greasegun. I had the opportunity to fire a MkII owned by a Class 3 dealer, and for a short time, I was issued the M3A1 when I was in the reserves (artillery). From what I've heard, some of the STENs the Israelis had were leftovers from the OSS efforts to supply Dutch and French resistance, built in Canada and warehoused here in the states.



jlf1961 -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 5:25:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I love the STEN and the M3A1 greasegun. I had the opportunity to fire a MkII owned by a Class 3 dealer, and for a short time, I was issued the M3A1 when I was in the reserves (artillery). From what I've heard, some of the STENs the Israelis had were leftovers from the OSS efforts to supply Dutch and French resistance, built in Canada and warehoused here in the states.



Actually, the majority of the stens used by the Jewish Resistance in Palestine were made in Palestine. One of the factories was under a laundry and is now a tourist attraction. The sten was designed so simply that Blacksmiths in the UK could produce them with the simplest of equipment.



TricklessMagic -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 7:46:26 AM)

Yeah the British were desperate to crank out guns and we had to send them a ton of civilian guns to help them out. Guns they went and dumped in the ocean after the war. Double barrel shotguns could be found among the arms issued to the emergency fielded guards.

STENs and Owen guns are the most reproduced illegally made submachine guns in Australia. It seems a P.A. Lutty design variant has gotten popular in Australia as well because it's even easier and faster to make. Hard to believe something is actually easier and simpler to make than a STEN but there is. I doubt the variant is as accurate as the STEN but then the STEN was never terribly accurate to begin with even in semi-auto select.

After the 1948 war, France sent more STENs to Israel that had once belong to French resistance fighters. France didn't really get caught up in the calls not to sell arms to the Israelis. Jet fighters, nuclear power station materials, etc. etc. etc..



DomKen -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 10:03:48 AM)

So by this theory since it is relatively easy to build a crude nuclear weapon if you know the details, plans are available if you look, we should not ban possession of nukes.



TricklessMagic -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 10:41:16 AM)

Really?

So you can build a nuclear device in your garage with tools you bought from Home Depot? Hmmmm.... Red Herring. Or in another word, bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So by this theory since it is relatively easy to build a crude nuclear weapon if you know the details, plans are available if you look, we should not ban possession of nukes.




DomKen -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 10:52:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

Really?

So you can build a nuclear device in your garage with tools you bought from Home Depot? Hmmmm.... Red Herring. Or in another word, bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So by this theory since it is relatively easy to build a crude nuclear weapon if you know the details, plans are available if you look, we should not ban possession of nukes.



Yes. The only hard to get part is the fissionable material itself but if you only want a kilo or so for a nuke you can get that if you really try.



Powergamz1 -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 2:41:28 PM)

Depends on what you mean by a 'nuclear device'. Something that would kill a lot of people, is not that difficult.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

Really?

So you can build a nuclear device in your garage with tools you bought from Home Depot? Hmmmm.... Red Herring. Or in another word, bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So by this theory since it is relatively easy to build a crude nuclear weapon if you know the details, plans are available if you look, we should not ban possession of nukes.






Yachtie -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 4:06:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

Really?

So you can build a nuclear device in your garage with tools you bought from Home Depot? Hmmmm.... Red Herring. Or in another word, bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So by this theory since it is relatively easy to build a crude nuclear weapon if you know the details, plans are available if you look, we should not ban possession of nukes.



Yes. The only hard to get part is the fissionable material itself but if you only want a kilo or so for a nuke you can get that if you really try.



Do you ever think before posting?



DomKen -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/3/2013 4:18:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

Really?

So you can build a nuclear device in your garage with tools you bought from Home Depot? Hmmmm.... Red Herring. Or in another word, bullshit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So by this theory since it is relatively easy to build a crude nuclear weapon if you know the details, plans are available if you look, we should not ban possession of nukes.



Yes. The only hard to get part is the fissionable material itself but if you only want a kilo or so for a nuke you can get that if you really try.



Do you ever think before posting?


Yes. If you truly think you can't build a nuke with commonly available components you are a fool.



MasterCaneman -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 9:54:37 AM)

How did we go from STENs to homemade nukes?



Moonhead -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 9:57:43 AM)

A ridiculously hyperbolic statement by somebody trying to drag the thread off topic?



DomKen -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 11:02:19 AM)

It's absolutely on topic. The argument is it is easy with common machine tools to make crude firearms. Those same machine tools can also be used to make a crude nuke. So if that is an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of firearms it is also an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of nukes.



Moonhead -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 4:41:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It's absolutely on topic. The argument is it is easy with common machine tools to make crude firearms. Those same machine tools can also be used to make a crude nuke. So if that is an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of firearms it is also an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of nukes.

I admit that I'm no gun bunny, but word on the street is that it's a teensy bit easier to score cordite than weapons grade plutonium.



PeonForHer -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 4:52:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It's absolutely on topic. The argument is it is easy with common machine tools to make crude firearms. Those same machine tools can also be used to make a crude nuke. So if that is an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of firearms it is also an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of nukes.


Ken, if that were the case, why haven't numerous terrorist groups done it so far?



DomKen -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 4:54:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It's absolutely on topic. The argument is it is easy with common machine tools to make crude firearms. Those same machine tools can also be used to make a crude nuke. So if that is an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of firearms it is also an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of nukes.

I admit that I'm no gun bunny, but word on the street is that it's a teensy bit easier to score cordite than weapons grade plutonium.

But you don't need plutonium. To make a crude fission device uranium can be used and there are unprotected pitchblende deposits in several places in the US and Canada. After that all you need is a good machine shop and small amount of explosives.




Moonhead -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 4:57:58 PM)

So why has no private individual or organisation (as opposed to government) ever managed to build a working nuclear device, however crude?
There haven't even been any dirty bombs exploded as yet.



DomKen -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 5:01:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It's absolutely on topic. The argument is it is easy with common machine tools to make crude firearms. Those same machine tools can also be used to make a crude nuke. So if that is an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of firearms it is also an argument against controlling the manufacture and sale of nukes.


Ken, if that were the case, why haven't numerous terrorist groups done it so far?

That's a damn good question. It does require precision timing of the charges so it is possible that part held up people before the advent of good cpu chips. Building a nuke in a machine shop by hand would almost certainly expose all the workers to lethal doses of radioactivity so maybe no one has been able to both get the fissionable material and skilled machinists willing to die that sort of death.

But the fact remains building a small nuke is simple.

Keep in mind that the guys at Los Alamos did it in the 40's with no where the quality of machine tools available today.



PeonForHer -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 5:02:08 PM)

I keep thinking of the IRA. God help us.



TricklessMagic -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 5:03:58 PM)

Yeah, the nuke strawman, always an oldie but goodie. Somehow something that can be used for recreational purposes such as target shooting, hunting, and also self-defense, is somehow on the same level as something that accomplishes nothing but death. You aren't removing tree stumps with radioactive fallout. You aren't engaging in pest control with "nukes".

So a single nuke can kill hundreds, and possibly thousands. A single gun has never been used to kill more than a hundred people in a day, to my knowledge, and that's assuming no good guys confront the shooter. So....what the fuck?



PeonForHer -> RE: A few questions about gun control... (6/4/2013 5:06:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Building a nuke in a machine shop by hand would almost certainly expose all the workers to lethal doses of radioactivity so maybe no one has been able to both get the fissionable material and skilled machinists willing to die that sort of death.



But you think, say, a Muslim fundamentalist, of that belief-system that holds death for the cause to be of the highest glory, might do it one day? If so, again, why hasn't it happened so far?



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