RE: psycho agents terrify college students

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tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 11:36:45 AM)
Not quite. Licensed supermarkets, convenience stores, and gas stations may sell beer and wine. Off-premises sales no later than 12 midnight. Numerous dry counties exist.

Hillwilliam -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 11:53:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Everything in this story runs counter to normal procedure, but since its in the media it must be true, I'll agree it runs counter to normal procedure but I've seen the story from several different sources and the state police spokesmen are strangely noncommunicative. Typically, stings, as run by various LEOs are to send someone into a store either without an ID or with a poor fake and see what happens. When you get an off premise license here, it is with the understanding that it will happen at least twice/year with very severe penalties including the possible arrest of the store clerk and loss of license. That said, underage drinking here will result in an arrest but I have never seen anyone so 'thoroughly pursued' unless there was an additional charge of at least felony severity involved which does not appear to be the case here.

eulero83 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 12:25:10 PM)
tazzygirl felineranger asked you if you were law enforcement or relative to one, but I'm beginning to think it's another thing, have you relatives or friends involved in serious accident caused by intoxicated minors, or being intoxicated during a party in college? because it seems you bear a grudge against sorority girls. by the way I never meant to say that if there's a law it must not be enforced but that safety, for both parts, during an arrest is responsibility of the officers and agressivity must be compared to the seriousness of the crime, ant they failed in this, period. When I said that driving under influence is different it's because it creates an immediate danger as it involves driving, that I think it is a bigger responsibility than drinking a beer, carrying a closed box of beer is not, and when it comes out it's just water, it's a double faliure. I didn't want to discuss if the right drinking age is 21 or 18 or 15 that's your problem as a country, and if there is a law must be enforced, but the way they enforced it and the way they dealt with safety was over the limits, even if she was known to the autorties to be a party girl. From your datas I see car deaths related to alchol doubled in italy since drinking age raised from 16 to 18.

tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 12:40:51 PM)
quote: tazzygirl felineranger asked you if you were law enforcement or relative to one, but I'm beginning to think it's another thing, have you relatives or friends involved in serious accident caused by intoxicated minors, or being intoxicated during a party in college? because it seems you bear a grudge against sorority girls. huh? Again, you are assuming things not in evidence. The answer to your questions are no. quote: I didn't want to discuss if the right drinking age is 21 or 18 or 15 that's your problem as a country, and if there is a law must be enforced, but the way they enforced it and the way they dealt with safety was over the limits, even if she was known to the autorties to be a party girl. Then you should not have brought up ages. You do realize police have the right to detain someone for questioning. You also do realize that resisting that detainment can be taken quite seriously. Even the ACLU recommends people not resist. Cops came forward, she jumped into the vehicle (resisting), started the car, and ran off (again, resisting). quote: When I said that driving under influence is different it's because it creates an immediate danger as it involves driving, that I think it is a bigger responsibility than drinking a beer, carrying a closed box of beer is not, and when it comes out it's just water, it's a double faliure. Italian police are not allowed to stop and question you? Q: Can the police stop me to ask me questions or to pat me down? A: Yes, but they cannot press you for information or make you stay much longer after you make it clear to them that you have no knowledge of the subject of their questions. If the officer has reasonable suspicion that a crime is about to occur, based on his own observations of the surroundings, he may pat you down for weapons only. http://www.shannonbedoislaw.com/legal-practice/criminal-defense/police-detainment/ Law Firm. The authority to detain on reasonable suspicion was established in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), and does not depend on the existence of a law that specifically authorizes such a detention, so that authority exists in all jurisdictions in the United States. Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Many state laws explicitly grant this authority; in Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court established it in all jurisdictions, regardless of explicit mention in state or local laws. Police may conduct a limited search for weapons (known as a “frisk”) if they reasonably suspect that the person to be detained may be armed and dangerous. Police may question a person detained in a Terry stop, but in general, the detainee is not required to answer.[10] However, many states have “stop and identify” laws that explicitly require a person detained under the conditions of Terry to identify himself to police, and in some cases, provide additional information. Before Hiibel, it was unresolved whether a detainee could be arrested and prosecuted for refusing to disclose his name. Authority on this issue was split among the federal circuit courts of appeal,[11] and the U.S. Supreme Court twice expressly refused to address the question.[12] In Hiibel, the Court held, in a 5–4 decision, that a Nevada “stop and identify” law did not violate the United States Constitution. The Court’s opinion implied that a detainee was not required to produce written identification, but could satisfy the requirement merely by stating his name. Some “stop and identify” laws do not require that a detainee identify himself, but allow refusal to do so to be considered along with other factors in determining whether there is probable cause to arrest. In some states, providing a false name is an offense.[13] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes#Detention

eulero83 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 1:10:41 PM)
it's probably the third time I say it, I don't question the right of police to question someone or the fact police is meant to enforce a law, but that's officers responsibility to act in order to guarantee safety both their and of the suspect, not vice versa, and keeping it cool is the first step. A similar situation in italy occours when you are asked to show the official receipt outside a shop, it's mandatory for the shop to give one as it register taxes, I never heard they draw a gun (even if they have one), and I think that most will panic if they did. about proper age I think 16 can be fine and at 18 you are for sure responsible of what you drink and what you do under influence, if you are old enought to marry drive join the army and vote, you to drink a beer, than for me drivng is a bigger responsibility than drinking, so that you can have a car before a beer is pure nonsense. But that was not the point of the OP.

tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 1:13:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 it's probably the third time I say it, I don't question the right of police to question someone or the fact police is meant to enforce a law, but that's officers responsibility to act in order to guarantee safety both their and of the suspect, not vice versa, and keeping it cool is the first step. A similar situation in italy occours when you are asked to show the official receipt outside a shop, it's mandatory for the shop to give one as it register taxes, I never heard they draw a gun (even if they have one), and I think that most will panic if they did. Ohhhhhhhhhh so, according to you, its perfectly acceptable to evade police by having a panic attack. I will notify some law firms and let them know you are writing new laws for the US.

eulero83 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 1:24:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 it's probably the third time I say it, I don't question the right of police to question someone or the fact police is meant to enforce a law, but that's officers responsibility to act in order to guarantee safety both their and of the suspect, not vice versa, and keeping it cool is the first step. A similar situation in italy occours when you are asked to show the official receipt outside a shop, it's mandatory for the shop to give one as it register taxes, I never heard they draw a gun (even if they have one), and I think that most will panic if they did. Ohhhhhhhhhh so, according to you, its perfectly acceptable to evade police by having a panic attack. I will notify some law firms and let them know you are writing new laws for the US. I told you there are things that can be dealt later and for me this was one, but yes if you sincerely fear for your life it's acceptable to run, than a judge will decide if exonerate you or not and your feeling in danger was proven as sincere. I mean if it's acceptable to kill someone for the same reason...

tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 1:30:13 PM)
quote: I told you there are things that can be dealt later and for me this was one, but yes if you sincerely fear for your life it's acceptable to run, than a judge will decide if exonerate you or not and your feeling in danger was proven as sincere. I mean if it's acceptable to kill someone for the same reason... Good way to get a bullet in your back. Nice going!

tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 1:39:28 PM)
~FR http://wtvr.com/2013/07/02/abc-re-investigates-henrico-womans-arrest-sparked-by-12-pack-water/ More info.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 1:40:35 PM)
~FR~ If shots had been fired, and one of the girls killed because they felt they were in danger and ran into one of them, what would people think? Is enforcing alcohol laws worth taking a life? Have some cop friends that are now retired. They were trained to weigh the situation and when in doubt call a supervisor. They would back off minor things, such as no high speed chase to run down someone that stole a $1 candy bar. Seriously, there is more than the officers safety as a concern here. Their safety and public safety need to be weighed. They should not create situations like this over minor infractions of the law, especially when there are other ways to deal with it.

tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 1:50:27 PM)
I agree, there is.... there are also things missing from this story.

tj444 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 3:03:48 PM)
FR- I think the cops were a little too gung ho to make arrests and saw what they wanted to see (beer that was water).. seriously, these are cops that specialize in busting alcohol offenses and they mistake water for beer??? hmmmm.. someone needs to go back to alcohol control school.. [;)]

BamaD -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 4:15:34 PM)
How were they stopped? The excuse is that they started the car.. and they had to have the car started to roll down the windows. No, you simply turn the car on, you dont have to crank the engine to roll down windows. But did they know that, in the service I once helped a LT who didn't know you had to pop the clutch when push starting his car.

Powergamz1 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/3/2013 8:33:45 PM)
I said that all legal liquor is sold at ABC stores. (Liquor is not beer, or wine by definition). After the comma, I said that some of the Virginia vineyards place their wines in the government run stores as well. Private stores that sell packaged alcohol, do so under the control of the ABC board. That's what 'licensed' means. All 3 of those statements are factually correct, your claims to the contrary notwithstanding. Nothing was said to indicate that private stores don't sell beer or other wines. Do you have any point that is at all relevant to the discussion at hand? quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Not quite. Licensed supermarkets, convenience stores, and gas stations may sell beer and wine. Off-premises sales no later than 12 midnight. Numerous dry counties exist.

Edwynn -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/4/2013 12:16:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control Their badge... [image]http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqFHJ!0E+OqQHcj6BQI,DMz2B!~~60_35.JPG[/image] Virginia Police Badge [image]http://richmondcitylimits.homestead.com/Richmond_Police_6_800x600.jpg[/image] That's what 20 yr. old college girls were trying to make out in the dark, though the badges are quite unrealistically oversized in the above. Here's the distinction that VA ABC officers had to deal with in the bright light of the girls coming out of the store: [image]http://www.passionforsavings.com/content/uploads/2013/02/001.jpg[/image] [image]http://munchymart.com/images/bd12packcans.jpg[/image] The 12 packs are about 10-12 times bigger than the badges, and with significantly greater distinction in any case. OK, so who are the professionals here? We are left wondering what training those ABC folks had. One would think that if their specialty was alcohol law enforcement, they might be trained in the distinction between beer and water. I think it's obvious that their training emphasized the latest in SWAT tactics above all else. I think that all modern day LE training emphasizes SWAT tactics above all else. Common sense is so retro. I mean, seriously.

GotSteel -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/4/2013 7:12:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn That's what 20 yr. old college girls were trying to make out in the dark, though the badges are quite unrealistically oversized in the above. The other part of the equation being that the girls hadn't done anything wrong and as such probably had a reasonable expectation that they wouldn't be harassed and threatened by real cops.

Real0ne -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/4/2013 7:39:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: tazzygirl felineranger asked you if you were law enforcement or relative to one, but I'm beginning to think it's another thing, have you relatives or friends involved in serious accident caused by intoxicated minors, or being intoxicated during a party in college? because it seems you bear a grudge against sorority girls. huh? Again, you are assuming things not in evidence. The answer to your questions are no. quote: I didn't want to discuss if the right drinking age is 21 or 18 or 15 that's your problem as a country, and if there is a law must be enforced, but the way they enforced it and the way they dealt with safety was over the limits, even if she was known to the autorties to be a party girl. Then you should not have brought up ages. You do realize police have the right to detain someone for questioning. You also do realize that resisting that detainment can be taken quite seriously. Even the ACLU recommends people not resist. Cops came forward, she jumped into the vehicle (resisting), started the car, and ran off (again, resisting). quote: When I said that driving under influence is different it's because it creates an immediate danger as it involves driving, that I think it is a bigger responsibility than drinking a beer, carrying a closed box of beer is not, and when it comes out it's just water, it's a double faliure. Italian police are not allowed to stop and question you? Q: Can the police stop me to ask me questions or to pat me down? A: Yes, but they cannot press you for information or make you stay much longer after you make it clear to them that you have no knowledge of the subject of their questions. If the officer has reasonable suspicion that a crime is about to occur, based on his own observations of the surroundings, he may pat you down for weapons only. http://www.shannonbedoislaw.com/legal-practice/criminal-defense/police-detainment/ Law Firm. The authority to detain on reasonable suspicion was established in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968), and does not depend on the existence of a law that specifically authorizes such a detention, so that authority exists in all jurisdictions in the United States. Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Many state laws explicitly grant this authority; in Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court established it in all jurisdictions, regardless of explicit mention in state or local laws. Police may conduct a limited search for weapons (known as a “frisk”) if they reasonably suspect that the person to be detained may be armed and dangerous. Police may question a person detained in a Terry stop, but in general, the detainee is not required to answer.[10] However, many states have “stop and identify” laws that explicitly require a person detained under the conditions of Terry to identify himself to police, and in some cases, provide additional information. Before Hiibel, it was unresolved whether a detainee could be arrested and prosecuted for refusing to disclose his name. Authority on this issue was split among the federal circuit courts of appeal,[11] and the U.S. Supreme Court twice expressly refused to address the question.[12] In Hiibel, the Court held, in a 5–4 decision, that a Nevada “stop and identify” law did not violate the United States Constitution. The Court’s opinion implied that a detainee was not required to produce written identification, but could satisfy the requirement merely by stating his name. Some “stop and identify” laws do not require that a detainee identify himself, but allow refusal to do so to be considered along with other factors in determining whether there is probable cause to arrest. In some states, providing a false name is an offense.[13] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes#Detention by what lawful authority (the fact they have guns and will shoot you notwithstanding) does the state have to force anyone to identify themselves. show us the contract.

Real0ne -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/4/2013 7:41:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD How were they stopped? The excuse is that they started the car.. and they had to have the car started to roll down the windows. No, you simply turn the car on, you dont have to crank the engine to roll down windows. But did they know that, in the service I once helped a LT who didn't know you had to pop the clutch when push starting his car. maybe they did not know that? not everyone has the same automotive education.

tj444 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/4/2013 9:13:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne by what lawful authority (the fact they have guns and will shoot you notwithstanding) does the state have to force anyone to identify themselves. show us the contract. the other day i was watching some youtube vids of TSA road checkpoint stops (these are not the ones at the border, they can be a hundred miles from the border or in various states).. the vids showed the intimidation tactics used by TSA to get people to "show their papers".. one even illegally reached inside & grabbed the camera.. it was really disgusting to watch TSA intimidating people with no probable cause.. even when the driver asked TSA what probable cause they had, TSA would continue to attempt to intimidate them.. I can see that working on scaring all but the strongest people.. and of course that is what TSA counts on.. really sad.. My view on the college students is that the "cops" had no probable cause to stop them at all and everything stemming from the attempt to illegally stop them is the "cops'" fault.. as far as vehicle education goes, I know someone that didnt know you need to check your oil and he (yes, he) ran the engine dry.. [:D]

tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/4/2013 9:15:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Virginia Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control Their badge... [image]http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqFHJ!0E+OqQHcj6BQI,DMz2B!~~60_35.JPG[/image] Virginia Police Badge [image]http://richmondcitylimits.homestead.com/Richmond_Police_6_800x600.jpg[/image] That's what 20 yr. old college girls were trying to make out in the dark, though the badges are quite unrealistically oversized in the above. Here's the distinction that VA ABC officers had to deal with in the bright light of the girls coming out of the store: [image]http://www.passionforsavings.com/content/uploads/2013/02/001.jpg[/image] [image]http://munchymart.com/images/bd12packcans.jpg[/image] The 12 packs are about 10-12 times bigger than the badges, and with significantly greater distinction in any case. OK, so who are the professionals here? We are left wondering what training those ABC folks had. One would think that if their specialty was alcohol law enforcement, they might be trained in the distinction between beer and water. I think it's obvious that their training emphasized the latest in SWAT tactics above all else. I think that all modern day LE training emphasizes SWAT tactics above all else. Common sense is so retro. I mean, seriously. Amazingly enough, I dont recall reading what brand of beer they claimed the girls had.... but the color of water is off from the article. [;)]

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