RE: psycho agents terrify college students (Full Version)

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Edwynn -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:31:17 AM)


The water was observed, along with the ice cream and cookie dough, as it was carried by the young woman in exiting the store, and placed it in her vehicle.

There has never been a mystery as to where the water or ice cream or cookie dough was, at any time, on either side.

The only mystery concerns how professional Alcohol Control agents could have possibly mistaken any of that for beer.

If there be any degree of professionalism here, then it needs to be more precise than observing somebody putting "a case of something" in their car.






tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:39:15 AM)

Now.. wait...

quote:

According to Charlottesville (Va.) Daily Progress, the student, Elizabeth Daly, was walking to her car on April 11 at approximately 10:15 p.m. with a box of sparkling water, cookie dough and ice cream she had just bought from a local supermarket when the agents—six men and one woman, all in plainclothes—approached suspecting the box, a blue carton of LaCroix sparkling water, to be a 12-pack of beer. One jumped on the hood of her SUV; another pulled out a gun, Daly said, as her roommates seated inside looked on in horror.


We have heard from ABC this part isnt true because the female approached, then the men when the girls didnt cooperate.

Daly had bought a carton of water, cookie dough and ice cream at a Charlottesville store on April 11. ABC spokeswoman Kathleen Shaw says a plainclothes agent conducting a sting suspected Daly had a case of beer and identified herself to Daly.

Read more: http://www.wxii12.com/news/local-news/virginia/va-abc-arrest-of-watertoting-student-under-review/-/10704014/20772448/-/i6u9q6z/-/index.html#ixzz2Y9dIsBuM

Doesnt say where the contact was made.

The seven plainclothed agents approached the vehicle in which the girl and her roommates were sitting, and one officer allegedly jumped on the hood of the car. Daly claims another officer pulled out his gun, which scared the students and prompted them to drive away.

http://rt.com/usa/virginia-girl-arrested-water-503/

This one says they were already in the car when approached. Makes sense to me. I dont think a cop would have allowed her to simply ease into her car without making an attempt to stop her before she actually did so.

It would, therefore, make sense that the purchase was already in the car, that she was observed at a distance.... why do a sting where the kids or store employees can see you... so they had to approach to ask.



Edwynn -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:51:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Now.. wait...

quote:

According to Charlottesville (Va.) Daily Progress, the student, Elizabeth Daly, was walking to her car on April 11 at approximately 10:15 p.m. with a box of sparkling water, cookie dough and ice cream she had just bought from a local supermarket when the agents—six men and one woman, all in plainclothes—approached suspecting the box, a blue carton of LaCroix sparkling water, to be a 12-pack of beer.



Thanks for making the point, as you've done several times already:
Competent LE prevents all this from happening at the start. These are Alcoholic Beverage Control agents, 'professionally trained,' and none of the seven of this team can even tell the difference between a 12 pack of water and a 12 pack of beer.

This is sad.



tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:59:23 AM)

And that is the reporter writing the story... after the fact. The writer knew what it was... there is nothing saying the ABC officers did at the time.

Hind sight is 20/20... and awfully convenient.

And you have yet to prove they were close enough to be able to read the box before they decided to approach. At least one report has the girls in the car before the female officer got to the vehicle.

Let me break it down for you.

I dont know if the cops did anything wrong. I have said all along we have had only one story. Now, the rest of the story is coming out.

Fake badges... that they never looked at.

No understanding that police work in something besides a uniform.

I do hope that if the officers were out of line, they get reprimanded. I just dont feel we have enough of the story to determine that yet.



Edwynn -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 1:13:01 AM)


We are talking about 'professionally trained' alcohol enforcement agents. After $80,000-100,000 cost of training, we might expect that they could discern these things better than you or I, better than a reporter, etc.

By your account of things, we should expect to deal with a doctor making a mistake as to what is a heart vs. what is a liver in the process of a transplant by saying that we should just chalk it off to "hindsight is 20/20."





tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 1:18:19 AM)

quote:

We are talking about 'professionally trained' alcohol enforcement agents. After $80,000-100,000 cost of training, we might expect that they could discern these things better than you or I, better than a reporter, etc.


Do you know how far away their positions were when the girls came out of the store? Do you think they were hanging around the entrance? (Hope you dont) Do you think they were moseying around the car? (Equally unlikely) So where would they be to be close enough to read the side of the package that, according to the only report I can find that stated where the girls were when approached, would have been placed into the vehicle by the time the first officer got there?

If you do, I want your crystal ball.

I could be wrong... its been known to happen... however, we still have lots of details that are missing.

quote:

By your account of things, we should expect to deal with a doctor making a mistake as to what is a heart vs. what is a liver in the process of a transplant by saying that we should just chalk it off to "hindsight is 20/20."


By yours cops should be able to tell the difference between a bag of weed and a bag of spices. Could have sworn thats why they have test kits in their cars for drugs... to be sure. [;)]



eulero83 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 1:21:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Now.. wait...

quote:

According to Charlottesville (Va.) Daily Progress, the student, Elizabeth Daly, was walking to her car on April 11 at approximately 10:15 p.m. with a box of sparkling water, cookie dough and ice cream she had just bought from a local supermarket when the agents—six men and one woman, all in plainclothes—approached suspecting the box, a blue carton of LaCroix sparkling water, to be a 12-pack of beer. One jumped on the hood of her SUV; another pulled out a gun, Daly said, as her roommates seated inside looked on in horror.


We have heard from ABC this part isnt true because the female approached, then the men when the girls didnt cooperate.





That's what they claim, you keep repeating we don't know the whole story, and that's under review, but as the girl is already been exonerated I don't see any other reson to investigate again but investigate the officers conduct, you also told more then once that it can't be coincidence that she was 20 and not 21, I don't see a reason to not think this, the news could have been 21yo girl arrested for water possession with the same probability.
Maybe they've been stupid but the officers story don't match with the ending that she had no reason to escape a police control, and as the 911 operator confirmed they where officers she stopped, and apoligized. I think they have a pattern to be overaggressive probably as ordered by their supervisors, but since now all complaint were ignored as the persons stopped where found in possession, when they found nothing placed THEM under the spotlights.
I repeate she has been exonerated so there is no reason to review the case but questioning the officers' conduct.



tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 1:23:52 AM)

She was still asking "What should I do?" even after the 911 dispatch told her they were ABC officers.

The point of contention is that we dont know if the officers did anything wrong. We have her story. The other side of the story is coming out and its not adding up.

According to the girls, the badgers were "unidentifiable". Yeah, guess they were if you didnt bother to look at them.

And she wasnt "exonerated" Exoneration occurs when a person who has been convicted of a crime is later proved to have been innocent of that crime.

There was no conviction. And there are multiple reasons why the charges have been dropped.




Edwynn -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 1:30:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Do you know how far away their positions were when the girls came out of the store?


What does that matter? It's their job to know what they're on about, however it needs to be done within a non-police state.

There are 12 packs of colas and water and beer carried from store to car, all day, all night. If a team of 7 dimwits can't figure out the distinction and difference in the area of their putative 'expertise,' then they need to be fired, for that alone.



tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 1:32:26 AM)

[sm=Groaner.gif]

A blue case of water... how many cases of beer are blue?

You gentlemen figure that out.. Im off to bed. [;)]




tj444 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 6:33:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

According to the girls, the badgers were "unidentifiable". Yeah, guess they were if you didnt bother to look at them.

how far away were the "cops" when they showed the girls their badges? at 10pm at night I would be very leery of anyone approaching me for no reason, especially someone claiming to be a "cop" with a plasticy looking "badge" I could not see well in the dark..

as far as this bit about having to be far away but using someone young putting "something" they bought from a grocery store into their car as probable cause.. imo there is no probable cause if they dont know wtf the girl put in her car.. being overly eager to make a bust (maybe cuz they hadnt made any for the night?) and making (badly incorrect) assumptions is not probable cause.. and imo it happens too often.. and imo its an abuse of power.. its also bad for the cops cuz their cop buddies are not likely to let them forget their attempted arrest for faux beer either.. lol



Hillwilliam -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 6:59:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Now.. wait...

quote:

According to Charlottesville (Va.) Daily Progress, the student, Elizabeth Daly, was walking to her car on April 11 at approximately 10:15 p.m. with a box of sparkling water, cookie dough and ice cream she had just bought from a local supermarket when the agents—six men and one woman, all in plainclothes—approached suspecting the box, a blue carton of LaCroix sparkling water, to be a 12-pack of beer. One jumped on the hood of her SUV; another pulled out a gun, Daly said, as her roommates seated inside looked on in horror.


We have heard from ABC this part isnt true because the female approached, then the men when the girls didnt cooperate.

Daly had bought a carton of water, cookie dough and ice cream at a Charlottesville store on April 11. ABC spokeswoman Kathleen Shaw says a plainclothes agent conducting a sting suspected Daly had a case of beer and identified herself to Daly.

Read more: http://www.wxii12.com/news/local-news/virginia/va-abc-arrest-of-watertoting-student-under-review/-/10704014/20772448/-/i6u9q6z/-/index.html#ixzz2Y9dIsBuM

Doesnt say where the contact was made.

The seven plainclothed agents approached the vehicle in which the girl and her roommates were sitting, and one officer allegedly jumped on the hood of the car. Daly claims another officer pulled out his gun, which scared the students and prompted them to drive away.

http://rt.com/usa/virginia-girl-arrested-water-503/

This one says they were already in the car when approached. Makes sense to me. I dont think a cop would have allowed her to simply ease into her car without making an attempt to stop her before she actually did so.

It would, therefore, make sense that the purchase was already in the car, that she was observed at a distance.... why do a sting where the kids or store employees can see you... so they had to approach to ask.

Let's take the officer's story at face value.
She claims she approached the young woman, showed her badge and identified herself.
So the officer claims she was close enough for the woman to see and read her badge (1/4" high letters) but at that same distance the officer couldn't tell the difference between LaCroix and Bud Lite in 2" high letters?
I'm sorry but she's either blind, incompetent or lying.

As for your statement of "It would, therefore, make sense that the purchase was already in the car, that she was observed at a distance.... why do a sting where the kids or store employees can see you... so they had to approach to ask"
Officers don't do sting ops in uniform. They were in plain clothes so they could just walk right up to you so the 'distance argument' doesn't wash either in the light of that and the claim of the female agent saying she approached and identified herself.

District Attorneys don't just drop charges out of the blue unless something is REALLY wrong with the state's case to the point of professional liability. Otherwise, they'll tie up the court for days trying to get a plea bargain so they can claim a victory.



defiantbadgirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 7:29:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


http://rt.com/usa/virginia-girl-arrested-water-503/

This one says they were already in the car when approached. Makes sense to me. I dont think a cop would have allowed her to simply ease into her car without making an attempt to stop her before she actually did so.

It would, therefore, make sense that the purchase was already in the car, that she was observed at a distance.... why do a sting where the kids or store employees can see you... so they had to approach to ask.


This would explain why the badges were unidentifiable. In the blown up pictures of the badges earlier in the thread, one thing I looked at was the size of the print in comparison to the size of the badge. The print on the badge they had was very small in comparison to the size of the badge. Since this whole thing happened after dark, it's easy to understand why the girls were unable to see such small print.



Zonie63 -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 11:31:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Do you know how far away their positions were when the girls came out of the store?


What does that matter? It's their job to know what they're on about, however it needs to be done within a non-police state.

There are 12 packs of colas and water and beer carried from store to car, all day, all night. If a team of 7 dimwits can't figure out the distinction and difference in the area of their putative 'expertise,' then they need to be fired, for that alone.


I think this is pretty much the crux of the issue, in a nutshell.

Much has been made about the fact what isn't known about the case, since some information seems missing or unclear about what exactly happened. The girl seems forthcoming in telling her side of the story, while the cops are stonewalling and giving very scant information to the public. This makes it look like the cops are hiding something.

Their entire position is apparently based on this statement (linked earlier by eulero83):

quote:

Agents were working in the area, concentrating on underage possession enforcement. An agent observed what appeared to be an underage person in possession of what appeared to be a case of beer, and approached her to investigate. The agent identified herself as a police officer and was displaying her badge. Other agents did not join the incident until the subject refused to cooperate. Rather than comply with the officers' requests, the subject drove off, striking two officers. She was not arrested for possessing bottled water, but for running from police and striking two of them with a vehicle.

The agents were acting upon reasonable suspicion and this whole unfortunate incident could have been avoided had the occupants complied with law enforcement requests. We take all citizen complaints seriously and the matter is currently under review by the ABC Bureau of Law Enforcement.


They don't really give much detail as to how the chain of events took place. How far away was the agent when she "observed what appeared to be an underage person in possession of what appeared to be a case of beer"? What made the agent believe that it was a case of beer? Did she bother to look at the label before approaching to investigate? Or was it that she was too far away to see and that she couldn't tell, so she just wanted to get a closer look?

Did they observe her enter the store before she made her purchases? Did they witness the actual transaction? And if not, why not? They're saying that their whole job, their whole reason for being there is to look for underage people buying beer, so if they don't have somebody in the corner of the store watching each and every transaction, then what else could they have been doing? Were they goofing off? Were the asleep on the job?

They also state that the female agent "approached her to investigate." This is also a key point which is glossed over in the statement. How, exactly, did this "approach" take place? Was the agent running across the parking lot and screaming like a maniac? Was she walking slowly and speaking calmly? What was the agent's demeanor and state of mind at that exact moment? This is another key piece of information that the cops should have included in their statement, but by not being more forthcoming with information, their story just doesn't wash.

Then we get to this part, "The agent identified herself as a police officer and was displaying her badge." Again, there is no detail about how this actually took place. Was she yelling across a parking lot from 100 yards away? Is it possible that the girls didn't hear her or see the badge? Is it possible that they may have thought she was trying to get someone else's attention instead?

And how did the "subject refuse to cooperate"? Did she flip them off or something? Was she just ignoring the agent and going about her business? Again, no details.

From the girls' viewpoint, all they knew was that a bunch of crazy people with guns started jumping on their car and banging on the windows for no reason. They had no idea what was going on, so how does that constitute an active, intentional "refusal to cooperate"? The fact that she called 911 was a clear indication that she honestly believed she was being attacked by some criminal gang. Otherwise, who would call the cops to get protection from the cops? And what reason would they have to run away from law enforcement if they weren't doing anything wrong? What reason would they have to not cooperate?

And why they wait all that time before approaching the girl in the first place? Why wait until she's almost at her car, when they could have easily stopped her just as she was exiting the store? The agent could have been standing right by the door, and as she came out, they could have asked:

"Excuse me, are you old enough to buy beer?"
"This isn't beer."
"Okay, thank you, have a good evening."

But no, they didn't they do that. They were likely goofing off in another part of the parking lot, not paying attention, then just incidentally caught sight of the girl as she was almost to her car and thought "Oh shit! We'd better do our jobs, she looks like she has beer, let's go get her!"




tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 11:38:40 AM)

quote:

Let's take the officer's story at face value.
She claims she approached the young woman, showed her badge and identified herself.
So the officer claims she was close enough for the woman to see and read her badge (1/4" high letters) but at that same distance the officer couldn't tell the difference between LaCroix and Bud Lite in 2" high letters?
I'm sorry but she's either blind, incompetent or lying.


According to the only report I could find as to the location, the girls were already in the vehicle... could the officer see into the vehicle?

Agents were working in the area, concentrating on underage possession enforcement. An agent observed what appeared to be an underage person in possession of what appeared to be a case of beer, and approached her to investigate. The agent identified herself as a police officer and was displaying her badge. Other agents did not join the incident until the subject refused to cooperate. Rather than comply with the officers' requests, the subject drove off, striking two officers. She was not arrested for possessing bottled water, but for running from police and striking two of them with a vehicle.

The girls had already put the "case" into the vehicle.

quote:

But no, they didn't they do that. They were likely goofing off in another part of the parking lot, not paying attention, then just incidentally caught sight of the girl as she was almost to her car and thought "Oh shit! We'd better do our jobs, she looks like she has beer, let's go get her!"


Show me where they did that... what proof do you have?

Sure are a lot of assumptions there. [;)]



Hillwilliam -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:06:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Let's take the officer's story at face value.
She claims she approached the young woman, showed her badge and identified herself.
So the officer claims she was close enough for the woman to see and read her badge (1/4" high letters) but at that same distance the officer couldn't tell the difference between LaCroix and Bud Lite in 2" high letters?
I'm sorry but she's either blind, incompetent or lying.


According to the only report I could find as to the location, the girls were already in the vehicle... could the officer see into the vehicle?

Agents were working in the area, concentrating on underage possession enforcement. An agent observed what appeared to be an underage person in possession of what appeared to be a case of beer, and approached her to investigate. The agent identified herself as a police officer and was displaying her badge. Other agents did not join the incident until the subject refused to cooperate. Rather than comply with the officers' requests, the subject drove off, striking two officers. She was not arrested for possessing bottled water, but for running from police and striking two of them with a vehicle.

The girls had already put the "case" into the vehicle.

quote:

But no, they didn't they do that. They were likely goofing off in another part of the parking lot, not paying attention, then just incidentally caught sight of the girl as she was almost to her car and thought "Oh shit! We'd better do our jobs, she looks like she has beer, let's go get her!"


Show me where they did that... what proof do you have?

Sure are a lot of assumptions there. [;)]

Again, they were running a sting. That means they're plainclothes and up close and personal.
If 7 agents are running a sting outside a store and a suspect manages to walk all the way to her car and load groceries before anyone notices her, someone has worse eyesight than Mr McGoo. Of course, the same eyesight was good enough to tell the difference visually that someone was 20 and not 21 but at the same time unable to tell the difference between laCroix and Bud Lite.

The story has more holes than a swiss cheese.



tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:08:21 PM)

quote:

Again, they were running a sting. That means they're plainclothes and up close and personal.


7 people lingering right outside the doors of a grocery store would call far too much attention, dont you think?



Hillwilliam -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:16:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Again, they were running a sting. That means they're plainclothes and up close and personal.


7 people lingering right outside the doors of a grocery store would call far too much attention, dont you think?

Not necessarily depending on how busy the store was. A typical supermarket has at least 2 exits.
If I go down to my local Ingles or Food City right now, there are going to be 15 or so people milling about the exits and in and out of their cars. I didn't say all 7 had to be right there but they certainly had the manpower to have one or 2 at each exit while the others were in and around the lot.

If they're running a sting to check buyers, it's kind of stupid not to have people right at the exits.
Seriously, if they're running a sting to check underage buyers, they need to actually be inside the store so they can witness the exchange and prove that person actually bought the beer.

More holes in the story. Did they really do that shitty a job planning an OP?



tazzygirl -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:22:43 PM)

quote:

Not necessarily depending on how busy the store was. A typical supermarket has at least 2 exits.


Ours here have only one.

quote:

More holes in the story. Did they really do that shitty a job planning an OP?


I never said they didnt make mistakes. In fact, I think I agreed they may not have done the best job they could have. I am asking questions based upon holes I see, information not available.

This call that police are always out to brutalize people, while it does happen, so called victims lie all the time too.

I can see a flood of "victims" who were too "terrified" to stop for the police suddenly becoming the new attempt to avoid arrests for a whole slew of offences.

There is her version, his version, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. I prefer to wait for the truth before declaring someone the victim.



Hillwilliam -> RE: psycho agents terrify college students (7/5/2013 12:30:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Not necessarily depending on how busy the store was. A typical supermarket has at least 2 exits.


Ours here have only one.

quote:

More holes in the story. Did they really do that shitty a job planning an OP?


I never said they didnt make mistakes. In fact, I think I agreed they may not have done the best job they could have. I am asking questions based upon holes I see, information not available.

This call that police are always out to brutalize people, while it does happen, so called victims lie all the time too.

I can see a flood of "victims" who were too "terrified" to stop for the police suddenly becoming the new attempt to avoid arrests for a whole slew of offences.

There is her version, his version, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. I prefer to wait for the truth before declaring someone the victim.

You must have tiny little grocery stores.

Noone is saying that police are always out to brutalize people. There's a bit of straw in that claim.

My claim is that either it was the sorriest planning for a sting in human history or the officer isn't exactly upfront.
Surely during their training, someone taught these officers the rule of the P's.
(proper planning prevents piss poor performance).
The evidence I have is the speed at which the DA dropped the charges. They don't do that unless they're trying to not get professionally hurt or trying to protect the involved LEO(s).



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