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ORIGINAL: igor2003

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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I have stated several times what I think Martins true motivation was. He saw Zimmerman reach for his cell phone and thought he was going for a weapon. That would protect him if he was on trial but it in no way negates Zimmerman's right to defend him self.

If Martin thought Zimmerman had a weapon, did Martin, like Zimmerman, have the right to defend himself?

Why are you asking me a question I already answered .
Yes, and if he were on trial I would be calling for his acquittal .
This seems to be the hard part. A cell phone is not a weapon. While Martin may well have believed there to be a weapon being pulled that does not make it so. Thus when Martin attacked him Zimmerman's right to self defense was in no way negated.

Actually, if I remember correctly, one of the defense witnesses yesterday said that a cell phone could, in fact, be a weapon. Under cross-examination the now self-employed former police officer and now self-defense expert, was shown several items…I think it was Zimmerman’s flashlight, a cell phone, and a ball point pen…and was asked if each could be a weapon, and his answer was, “Yes” to each item. He then went on to say that most any item could be used as a weapon in the right circumstances.

Then, although it wasn’t allowed, the cartoon that the defense wanted to use as “evidence” brought out yet another fact which bolsters the idea that it was Zimmerman that attacked Martin…not the other way around. “How so?” you ask? Well let me tell you…

The cartoon showed Martin punching Zimmerman in the nose with his left hand. When asked why they showed Martin using his left hand, I think it was the gentleman that created the cartoon that explained that the damage to Zimmerman’s nose was mainly on the right side of his nose. For that to have happened, Martin would have most likely hit him with his left hand. Why is that important? Because Martin was RIGHT HANDED. If he intended to do some serious damage it is only logical that he would have used his dominant hand. But he didn’t use that hand. Why? Could it be that Zimmerman had a hold of Martins right arm, thus prompting Martin to yell, “Get off! Get off!” , as per Rachel Jeantel’s testimony, and forcing Martin to swing at Zimmerman with his LEFT HAND?

It still seems WAY more likely that Zimmerman, who had shown his aggressive tendencies all through the fiasco with his “Fucking punks” and “These assholes, they always get away” comments; with his ignoring Neighborhood Watch protocols; with his ignoring the NEN operators admonition to not follow; with his abrupt “What are you doing here?“ question; and with his prescriptions for adderoll and temazepam, both of which can cause increased aggression, anxiety, and even hallucinations, is most likely to have been the one to have started the physical contact. And with Jeantel’s testimony and the defense’s own cartoon “evidence” I don’t see how there can be much question.

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What exactly is this alleged rational fear based on, if not something observable? Just give a straight answer to the obvious and logical question.

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Or keep playing these same tired old games to derail as many liberal posters as you can... your choice.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

Why would the prosecution wait till the last minute to add this? Maybe because the know they didn't have a case?

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What exactly was it about Zimmerman's physical appearance that night which would rationally create a fear of being lynched or otherwise killed (based on the history of violence against blacks) in the hypothetical black person?

I said nothing about Zimmerman's appearance, so I'll let you play in peace with your straw man.

I'll take it, then. The shaved head is a common hairstyle among hispanic gangs, and the red of Zimmerman's outer garment is a gang color.

I realize that brown/black violence is nowhere near as coverageworthy in the media as white/black, but it is a leading cause of death for black men of Trayvon's age group, and Georgie looks a lot more brown than white, no matter how the New York Times chose to characterize him.


I am glad of the news today that manslaughter will be available for the jury to consider. Regardless of how the verdict may go, I think that is the appropriate charge for them to be considering in this tragedy and travesty.

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What exactly is this alleged rational fear based on, if not something observable? Just give a straight answer to the obvious and logical question.

Who said anything about fear, allegedly rational or otherwise? The point Marc made earlier in the thread, and which I echoed, is that it's not absurd to consider that things might very well have turned out differently if Trayvon Martin had been white. It's no secret that young black men are objects of suspicion--stop and frisk, anyone?--in a way that whites generally are not. Had Martin been white, I seriously wonder if Zimmerman would have confronted him, sparking the tragic confrontation that unfolded.

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Or keep playing these same tired old games to derail as many liberal posters as you can... your choice.

As one's of P&R's bluest liberals, my motivation to derail fellow liberal posters would be what exactly?

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The same reason for trying to argue down the DOMA ruling in the other thread? I already told you I can only speculate as to your true reason, but I can certainly comment on the assertions.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What exactly was it about Zimmerman's physical appearance that night which would rationally create a fear of being lynched or otherwise killed (based on the history of violence against blacks) in the hypothetical black person?

I said nothing about Zimmerman's appearance, so I'll let you play in peace with your straw man.

I'll take it, then. The shaved head is a common hairstyle among hispanic gangs, and the red of Zimmerman's outer garment is a gang color.

I realize that brown/black violence is nowhere near as coverageworthy in the media as white/black, but it is a leading cause of death for black men of Trayvon's age group, and Georgie looks a lot more brown than white, no matter how the New York Times chose to characterize him.


I am glad of the news today that manslaughter will be available for the jury to consider. Regardless of how the verdict may go, I think that is the appropriate charge for them to be considering in this tragedy and travesty.

Why would the prosecution wait till the last minute to add this? Maybe because the know they didn't have a case?

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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The same reason for trying to argue down the DOMA ruling in the other thread? I already told you I can only speculate as to your true reason, but I can certainly comment on the assertions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzlG28B-R8Y

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: dcnovice

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What exactly was it about Zimmerman's physical appearance that night which would rationally create a fear of being lynched or otherwise killed (based on the history of violence against blacks) in the hypothetical black person?

I said nothing about Zimmerman's appearance, so I'll let you play in peace with your straw man.

I'll take it, then. The shaved head is a common hairstyle among hispanic gangs, and the red of Zimmerman's outer garment is a gang color.

I realize that brown/black violence is nowhere near as coverageworthy in the media as white/black, but it is a leading cause of death for black men of Trayvon's age group, and Georgie looks a lot more brown than white, no matter how the New York Times chose to characterize him.


I am glad of the news today that manslaughter will be available for the jury to consider. Regardless of how the verdict may go, I think that is the appropriate charge for them to be considering in this tragedy and travesty.

Why would the prosecution wait till the last minute to add this? Maybe because the know they didn't have a case?

Now thats an interesting question.

It seems to me that it is poor strategy to go for murder, go for murder, go for murder. Try and prove murder. and then, at the last moment.. say.. well maybe its manslaughter.

My read would be that
a) they had to try the case and were told to try it as murder and have now re evaluated.
b) they are hoping for jurors to not have a clear decision and settle on a charge of manslaughter as a compromise.

I don't think they proved manslaughter any more than they proved murder. Of course I think the charge of murder was pure politcal hokum pipe dreams anyway.

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

As pointed out in the beginning of the thread, manslaughter was always on the table unless the Judge chose to exclude at the end. The child abuse at the last second, looked like desperation.

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

As pointed out in the beginning of the thread, manslaughter was always on the table unless the Judge chose to exclude at the end. The child abuse at the last second, looked like desperation.

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

As a skeptic, I'm suspicious that the prosecution deliberately hoped to rekindle the picture of 'Childe Trayvon' in the jury's mind.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

As a skeptic, I'm suspicious that the prosecution deliberately hoped to rekindle the picture of 'Childe Trayvon' in the jury's mind.

Like I suspect that the sun will come up tomorrow?

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What I find lacking, again and again, among the "Zimmerman did nothing wrong" crowd, is any empathy whatsoever for the victim, and the circumstances he found himself in, prior to jumping the creepy ass cracker who was stalking him. There doesn't seem to be any comprehension that this young man had every right to wander around, and take his time getting back from the store, and that in a "stand your ground" culture he should not have been expected to just run home when some pervert kept staring at him.

We will hear that Zimmerman was neighborhood watch, to justify the stalking, but few acknowledgements that neighborhood watch are not supposed to be armed in the first place.

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

Manslaughter/negligent homicide seems to me to most appropriate charge in the case, and I think that option should be there for the jury.

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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What I find lacking, again and again, among the "Zimmerman did nothing wrong" crowd, is any empathy whatsoever for the victim, and the circumstances he found himself in, prior to jumping the creepy ass cracker who was stalking him. There doesn't seem to be any comprehension that this young man had every right to wander around, and take his time getting back from the store, and that in a "stand your ground" culture he should not have been expected to just run home when some pervert kept staring at him.

We will hear that Zimmerman was neighborhood watch, to justify the stalking, but few acknowledgements that neighborhood watch are not supposed to be armed in the first place.

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

Manslaughter/negligent homicide seems to me to most appropriate charge in the case, and I think that option should be there for the jury.

Great post Rich.
Funny how the Zimmerman "supporters" don't bother to chat about how confrontational Zimmerman was that evening.
Would Zimmerman have been doing his "neighborhood watch" following and chasing people unarmed?

If I decide to go out and follow random people, to "protect my neighborhood" and I have a weapon on me, it appears pre-meditated to me.

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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What I find lacking, again and again, among the "Zimmerman did nothing wrong" crowd, is any empathy whatsoever for the victim, and the circumstances he found himself in, prior to jumping the creepy ass cracker who was stalking him. There doesn't seem to be any comprehension that this young man had every right to wander around, and take his time getting back from the store, and that in a "stand your ground" culture he should not have been expected to just run home when some pervert kept staring at him.

We will hear that Zimmerman was neighborhood watch, to justify the stalking, but few acknowledgements that neighborhood watch are not supposed to be armed in the first place.

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

Manslaughter/negligent homicide seems to me to most appropriate charge in the case, and I think that option should be there for the jury.

Great post Rich.
Funny how the Zimmerman "supporters" don't bother to chat about how confrontational Zimmerman was that evening.
Would Zimmerman have been doing his "neighborhood watch" following and chasing people unarmed?

If I decide to go out and follow random people, to "protect my neighborhood" and I have a weapon on me, it appears pre-meditated to me.

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ORIGINAL: Marini

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What I find lacking, again and again, among the "Zimmerman did nothing wrong" crowd, is any empathy whatsoever for the victim, and the circumstances he found himself in, prior to jumping the creepy ass cracker who was stalking him. There doesn't seem to be any comprehension that this young man had every right to wander around, and take his time getting back from the store, and that in a "stand your ground" culture he should not have been expected to just run home when some pervert kept staring at him.

We will hear that Zimmerman was neighborhood watch, to justify the stalking, but few acknowledgements that neighborhood watch are not supposed to be armed in the first place.

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

Manslaughter/negligent homicide seems to me to most appropriate charge in the case, and I think that option should be there for the jury.

Great post Rich.
Funny how the Zimmerman "supporters" don't bother to chat about how confrontational Zimmerman was that evening.
Would Zimmerman have been doing his "neighborhood watch" following and chasing people unarmed?

If I decide to go out and follow random people, to "protect my neighborhood" and I have a weapon on me, it appears pre-meditated to me.