RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 3:00:51 AM

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~ FR ~

This afternoon I heard what was perhaps the most disjointed, fact-free, histrionic, and ineffective closing argument that I’ve heard delivered by a State prosecutor in a murder case in more than two decades of practicing law. ~Legal Insurrection

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/12/2013 3:04:42 AM >

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 3:34:42 AM

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"Legal Insurrection"? Yeah, they've been making bank off pageview based on their flawed analysis.

And his links are all broken, so I had to go to the source:

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf

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(in reply to Kirata)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 3:37:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

What I find lacking, again and again, among the "Zimmerman did nothing wrong" crowd, is any empathy whatsoever for the victim, and the circumstances he found himself in, prior to jumping the creepy ass cracker who was stalking him. There doesn't seem to be any comprehension that this young man had every right to wander around, and take his time getting back from the store, and that in a "stand your ground" culture he should not have been expected to just run home when some pervert kept staring at him.

We will hear that Zimmerman was neighborhood watch, to justify the stalking, but few acknowledgements that neighborhood watch are not supposed to be armed in the first place.

I don't think either of the players that night were perfect little angels, or despicable demons. Bad shit happened that night, and bad choices Zimmerman made led to it.

Manslaughter/negligent homicide seems to me to most appropriate charge in the case, and I think that option should be there for the jury.

Great post Rich.
Funny how the Zimmerman "supporters" don't bother to chat about how confrontational Zimmerman was that evening.
Would Zimmerman have been doing his "neighborhood watch" following and chasing people unarmed?

If I decide to go out and follow random people, to "protect my neighborhood" and I have a weapon on me, it appears pre-meditated to me.

These^^^^

I have to wonder if he hadnt used a gun to back up his killing of TM if the Z supporters would feel the same way if he had had stabbed TM with a kitchen knife, of course, we will never know ...... for truth.

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 7/12/2013 3:38:33 AM >

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(in reply to Marini)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 3:52:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

his links are all broken, so I had to go to the source:

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf

Something's broken alright, but I don't think it's his link to the final jury instructions.

(because, yanno, there isn't one)

K.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 5:12:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And we are unsure if he started a fistfight, there is no evidence for that.

However, George has been given one life, and it is worth about as much as asswipe used on both sides, regardless of the verdict.

That there is no evidence that George started a fistfight and, moreover, lots of evidence that George acted in self-defense, is why the Sheriff and local D.A. refused to file any charges against George -- for which they were both fired, a special prosecutor assigned, and charges filed due to pressure from race-baiting activists and political connections all the way up to Eric Holder and Barack Obama.

Sorry Mnotter - simply not true.

The expert testimony was that it was likely that travon initiated the arm's length contact AND initiated the first fight. Go watch the court testimony.

Sorry Phydeaux - simply not true. paid expert testimony is just that, shitlicking for dollars. Expert testimony is as imaginative as inexpert testimony.

It is reasonable and possible (not factual) hallucination.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 6:11:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

One more time, the question addressed to me on that specific topic, was what I weighed when I was Zimmerman's age. At that age ( 20s - 30s) I was in the US military and then the federal law enforcement that I had previously mentioned, and yes, we had H/W standards that were similar to each other.

If I had meant local, I would have said local.
I didn't say local, so pull your head out of your assumptions, while trying to tap dance your way out of being wrong.

So you said "in the united states" when you meant "Federal".

Again. Learn basic writing skills, and quit whining when you get called on the lack of the ability to communicate clearly.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 6:43:03 AM

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quote:

It negates everything you have said.

No it does not. If Trayvon attacked first (a very big if) it is because Zimmerman's following him made him afraid. Everything starts with Zimmerman seeing a black kid walk down the street and thinking, "uh oh."

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 6:47:03 AM

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quote:

No for thinking he can beat them up for being a cracker

There is no evidence that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for being a "cracker" (Trayvon was the one walking home, remember). Circumstances suggest that if Trayvon attacked first (another mighty big if), it is because he was afraid. There was this guy following him, you see.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 7/12/2013 7:08:15 AM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 6:53:19 AM

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quote:

ust as reasonable to at least suspect that if he had been white he wouldn't have attacked Zimmerman.

On what basis do you presume that whites are any more or less peaceful that any other so called racial group?

quote:

You can't convict on suspect no matter how much it will salve your white guilt.

I'm not on the jury so I'm not convicting on anything. As for "white guilt," that is nothing more than recognizing reality for what it is. I personally don't feel any guilt for any of the injustices of the past... hell, I wasn't there. I simply recognize that they happened, why they happened, and as a result, society will look upon me, and treat me, more favorably.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 6:55:39 AM

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quote:

Why can't any of you see that I was highlighting the absurdity of his argument.

Because reality says that my argument is not absurd, you just don't want to see that.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 7/12/2013 7:08:31 AM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 7:20:41 AM

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quote:

What I find lacking, again and again, among the "Zimmerman did nothing wrong" crowd, is any empathy whatsoever for the victim,

Haven't you heard? Trayvon did poorly in school! He didn't get along with his mother! Clearly he was a worthless person and we should not concern ourselves with him.

Psst... also, Trayvon was black... but were not supposed to mention that because it upsets the people who want to pretend we live in a colorblind society.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 7:28:02 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Why can't any of you see that I was highlighting the absurdity of his argument.

Because reality says that my argument is not absurd, you just don't want to see that.

No, it's you who says that your argument isn't absurd. People have different perceptions, and to some it looks not only absurd but completely out of touch with reality. Granted you may hold a similar view of their position, that does not empower you to declare yours correct by fiat. For you to think otherwise, in and of itself, contradicts your claim to a correct perception of reality.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 7/12/2013 7:41:52 AM >

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 7:51:12 AM

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quote:

Well no, it's you who says that your argument isn't absurd. People have different perceptions, and to some it looks not only absurd but completely out of touch with reality. Granted you may hold a similar view of their position, but that does not empower you to declare yours correct by fiat. And for you to think otherwise contradicts your claim to having the correct perception of reality.

People have different perceptions but that doesn't mean their perceptions are accurate or hold equal weight with others.

You'd understand that if you perceived things correctly.

Seriously, race has no bearing on whether Trayvon would have been more likely or less likely to attack a creepy guy following him. People often attack perceived threats. That is a normal human reaction. On the other hand, race my well have played a role in Zimmerman's decision to follow Trayvon. I have repeatedly stated that there is no way for me to know this as a fact and that it is a supposition. But it is a sound supposition based upon human nature and history, particularly American history. It is my opinion and I am sticking with it.

And that, for some reason, upsets people because Trayvon did poorly in school and didn't get along with his mother and had the audacity to not be polite to the stranger who was following him and therefore clearly got what was coming for him. But not because he was black. Oh no, never because he was black.

Methinks they do protest to much. But that, again, is just my opinion.

Nothing however changes the fact that, whatever his motivations, it was Zimmerman who set in motion the chain of events that led to Trayvon's death.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 8:12:29 AM

kdsub

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quote:

There is no evidence that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for being a "cracker" (Trayvon was the one walking home, remember). Circumstances suggest that if Trayvon attacked first (another mighty big if), it is because he was afraid. There was this guy following him, you see.

Marc look at all the if's in your statement above. Is it the right thing to do to convict someone on if's?

People want to divide this tragedy into people against Zimmerman's actions or for them where it should be is there reasonable doubt. Personally I do blame Zimmerman for what happened but I cannot say beyond a shadow of doubt that his version is not the truth. Even if he is telling the truth it is still wrong what he did but not against the law at that time.

As bad as I feel for the parents of that young man and their desire for justice I believe true justice will find Zimmerman not guilty by reasonable doubt.

Butch

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(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 8:40:30 AM

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quote:

Marc look at all the if's in your statement above. Is it the right thing to do to convict someone on if's?

People want to divide this tragedy into people against Zimmerman's actions or for them where it should be is there reasonable doubt. Personally I do blame Zimmerman for what happened but I cannot say beyond a shadow of doubt that his version is not the truth. Even if he is telling the truth it is still wrong what he did but not against the law at that time.

As bad as I feel for the parents of that young man and their desire for justice I believe true justice will find Zimmerman not guilty by reasonable doubt.

Butch

I already stated that I don't think Zimmerman should be convicted of murder... but he created the situation and that, at least, should be considered manslaughter.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 8:51:48 AM

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Yeah.. get back to me when you find *any* city or state law enforcement agency with 'US' meaning United States, in their official designation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

One more time, the question addressed to me on that specific topic, was what I weighed when I was Zimmerman's age. At that age ( 20s - 30s) I was in the US military and then the federal law enforcement that I had previously mentioned, and yes, we had H/W standards that were similar to each other.

If I had meant local, I would have said local.
I didn't say local, so pull your head out of your assumptions, while trying to tap dance your way out of being wrong.

So you said "in the united states" when you meant "Federal".

Again. Learn basic writing skills, and quit whining when you get called on the lack of the ability to communicate clearly.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 8:55:47 AM

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*DERP*

US Marshals. US Secret Service.

Of course I haven't had only one cuppa coffee yet, so the list may not be exhaustive, in response to your enquiry.

How does one put US in front of Dismal Seepage, Florida crackerjack police dept?

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/12/2013 8:59:11 AM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 9:00:39 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
race my well have played a role in Zimmerman's decision to follow Trayvon.

imo, race was only 1 of three things that caused Zimmy to follow, in his words- "the suspect" (Martin)..

race- the kid was black
age- the kid was a young person
sex- the kid was male

so Zimmy was racist, ageist and sexist, all three.. If Martin was a black 60 year old male.. Zimmy would not have followed him.. if Martin was a 17 year old black girl, Zimmy would not have followed him.. I see 3 elements that made Zimmy view Martin as a "suspect", instead of as just a kid walking home from the store talking on his cell to his girlfriend..

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 9:02:35 AM

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That's utterly fantastic. So US Marshalls and the US Secret Service are *LOCAL* law enforcement agencies on your planet?

ROTFLMAO!!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
Yeah.. get back to me when you find *any* city or state law enforcement agency with 'US' meaning United States, in their official designation

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

*DERP*

US Marshals. US Secret Service.

Of course I haven't had only one cuppa coffee yet, so the list may not be exhaustive, in response to your enquiry.

How does one put US in front of Dismal Seepage, Florida crackerjack police dept?

_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/12/2013 9:10:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Yeah.. get back to me when you find *any* city or state law enforcement agency with 'US' meaning United States, in their official designation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

One more time, the question addressed to me on that specific topic, was what I weighed when I was Zimmerman's age. At that age ( 20s - 30s) I was in the US military and then the federal law enforcement that I had previously mentioned, and yes, we had H/W standards that were similar to each other.

If I had meant local, I would have said local.
I didn't say local, so pull your head out of your assumptions, while trying to tap dance your way out of being wrong.

So you said "in the united states" when you meant "Federal".

Again. Learn basic writing skills, and quit whining when you get called on the lack of the ability to communicate clearly.

You said "IN THE UNITED STATES"

Are you going to claim that local LEO is not "IN THE UNITED STATES"?

I'm going to let you in on a deep dark seekrit. If you don't write clearly and fail to communicate as a result, don't blame those who don't get your poorly written message for the fact that they read and write English at above a 6th grade level and expect the same.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Powergamz1)

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