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Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter option - 7/6/2013 11:18:37 PM

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Please don't poo in the pool

When the jury goes off to decide the guilt or innocence of the man who shot Trayvon Martin, should they have the option of choosing to convict for manslaughter, or should they be restricted to the all or nothing of 2nd degree murder vs. the killer walking away to his book deal?

As I understand Florida law, and I may be misinformed, it will be up to the judge, when the instructions are given.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/6/2013 11:38:38 PM

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It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/6/2013 11:39:50 PM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/6/2013 11:42:25 PM

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I don't know, isn't that sorta like saying to the prosecuters, go ahead and charge him with anything you like and if you can't make that stick we'll convict him of something else...

why not charge him with 1st degree and if that doesn't fly go to 2nd degree and if that won't fly go to maunslaughter and if that won't fly go to reckless endangerment and if that don't fly go to jay walking, etc etc etc

sorta like saying charge anything and we'll pin SOMETHING on him

it just feels like changing the rules in the middle of a game cause you aren't winning

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/6/2013 11:42:55 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

No they didn't and no there isn't.
The only way the jury can come in with a guilty plea is insanity all 6 of them.
My main concern is that the jury pool is so tainted that they will vote guilty just on general principals.
A 17 year old died someone has to pay.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/6/2013 11:45:40 PM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/6/2013 11:44:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

could you please show a link or something that confirms this, not saying you are wrong, but its the first I have heard there were multiple charges

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/6/2013 11:47:42 PM

BamaD

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they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

And that sounds like we can't prove anything but let's convict him anyway.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 1:37:25 AM

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Yes but I think the prosecution blew it but I am not totally sure.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 1:46:10 AM

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http://www.jlellis.net/blog/zimmerman-and-lesser-included-offenses/

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

could you please show a link or something that confirms this, not saying you are wrong, but its the first I have heard there were multiple charges

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 3:29:03 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Please don't poo in the pool

When the jury goes off to decide the guilt or innocence of the man who shot Trayvon Martin, should they have the option of choosing to convict for manslaughter, or should they be restricted to the all or nothing of 2nd degree murder vs. the killer walking away to his book deal?

As I understand Florida law, and I may be misinformed, it will be up to the judge, when the instructions are given.

Under UK Law Zimmerman could have had that option, as well as one of self defence. Sometimes a murder trial is changed to a manslaughter trial as it progresses. The key would, in my opinion, be if a defendent could prove there was a qualifying trigger.

From the Coroners and Justice Act 2009

"1)Where a person (“D”) kills or is a party to the killing of another (“V”), D is not to be convicted of murder if—
(a)D's acts and omissions in doing or being a party to the killing resulted from D's loss of self-control,
(b)the loss of self-control had a qualifying trigger, and
(c)a person of D's sex and age, with a normal degree of tolerance and self-restraint and in the circumstances of D, might have reacted in the same or in a similar way to D."

(in reply to TheHeretic)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 3:56:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

Trayvon being under 18 doesn't matter.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2013/07/dont-believe-every-tweet-you-read/

And that said, there is such a strong case for self defense, it's an obvious acquittal.

(in reply to farglebargle)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 3:59:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

No they didn't and no there isn't.
The only way the jury can come in with a guilty plea is insanity all 6 of them.
My main concern is that the jury pool is so tainted that they will vote guilty just on general principals.
A 17 year old died someone has to pay.

Yep, that's the only hope for a conviction, is if the jury rules by emotion and not by law. But if that happens, Nelson has made so much reversible error that the conviction getting overturned is guaranteed.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 5:05:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Yep, that's the only hope for a conviction, is if the jury rules by emotion and not by law. But if that happens, Nelson has made so much reversible error that the conviction getting overturned is guaranteed.

Could you name one reversible error in this trial that has gone against Zimmerman?

(in reply to Raiikun)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 5:31:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Yep, that's the only hope for a conviction, is if the jury rules by emotion and not by law. But if that happens, Nelson has made so much reversible error that the conviction getting overturned is guaranteed.

Could you name one reversible error in this trial that has gone against Zimmerman?

Refusing to grant a continuance even as the State gives 1000+ pages of evidence to the defense it intends to use a week before trial. Richard Hornsby brought up case law on that.

Waiting u til after trial to address clear Brady violations by the state.

Not allowing the defense to bring in evidence of Trayvon's history of fighting even after the door was opened for it.

Several others, but those three stick out. There's a strong chance the denial of the JOA is reversible as well.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 7/7/2013 5:32:22 AM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 5:48:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

No they didn't and no there isn't.
The only way the jury can come in with a guilty plea is insanity all 6 of them.
My main concern is that the jury pool is so tainted that they will vote guilty just on general principals.
A 17 year old died someone has to pay.

Agreed.

Had this been black vs white or black vs black it might have made the local evening news...might have...and been forgotten.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 5:53:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

And that sounds like we can't prove anything but let's convict him anyway.

Worse yet, the prosecution actually proved more of defense's case than its own.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 5:55:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

Trayvon being under 18 doesn't matter.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/2013/07/dont-believe-every-tweet-you-read/

And that said, there is such a strong case for self defense, it's an obvious acquittal.

It's an obvious acquittal to every objective person.

(in reply to Raiikun)

RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:04:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Yes but I think the prosecution blew it but I am not totally sure.

I don't know if they blew it really...as Judge Alex Ferrer put it, the prosecution did what they could with what they had.

Oh:

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 7/7/2013 6:06:38 AM >

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 6:24:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Yes but I think the prosecution blew it but I am not totally sure.

Absolutely. It's clear that they did not prep their witnesses. Rachel Jeantel was not prepared in the least, and it showed. Since the entire case hinged on her testimony, that's amazingly incompetent.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 7:07:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Refusing to grant a continuance even as the State gives 1000+ pages of evidence to the defense it intends to use a week before trial. Richard Hornsby brought up case law on that.

Judges have wide discretion on managing their calendar. I doubt you'll find actual appellate precedent saying otherwise.

quote:

Waiting u til after trial to address clear Brady violations by the state.

You'll have to be more specific. From all appearances no exculpatory evidence has been withheld.

quote:

Not allowing the defense to bring in evidence of Trayvon's history of fighting even after the door was opened for it.

This is called victim blaming and is pretty much never allowed. Anyway it is irrelevant to the case in question. The judge rightfully ruled all that stuff was prejudicial.

Except for the Brady claims, which you didn't provide enough info on, none of that stuff would likely even get an appellate hearing. If any of it was actually as major as you claim the defense could have filed an interlocutory appeal and they didn't.

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RE: Zimmerman III - Should the jury have a manslaughter... - 7/7/2013 7:24:23 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

It's already a lesser-included offense, so the option's always been there. BUT since Zimmerman killed someone under 18, the mandatory minimums are the same, 25 to life, and by charging 2nd degree, they avoid having to prove that Zimmerman's use of deadly force wasn't explicitly justified. ( an element in manslaughter )...

This way, the Defense needs to bring it to the table. Subtle, but relevant in the charging phase.

They also clearly demonstrated the 'Ill Will' component using Zimmerman's own words on the 911 tape. There IS a case for 2nd.

could you please show a link or something that confirms this, not saying you are wrong, but its the first I have heard there were multiple charges

Did you see the evidence of Zimmerman going all 'They always get away', and going after Martin after being told that he didn't need to do that?

The idea that Zimmerman didn't know what of the THREE STREETS he was 'neighborhood watch captain' for is laughable.

The idea that Zimmerman couldn't see the clearly visible house numbers is laughable.

Given that Zimmerman's story about WHY he was wandering around that night is laughable, we're just going to have to go with his general frustration and his amphetamine high getting the better of his judgement and he went with his anger.

Do try to keep up during the summations. They went over all this in the opening, too.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/7/2013 7:25:21 AM >

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BitYakin)

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