quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

you are correct, there is nothing in the koran that either allows or disallows voting...

I will say this though, at the time when the koran was written, was voting an issue?

what I mean is why would the koran mention "voting" when at the time 97% of the world was ruled by dictators, kings, queens, pharohs etc etc etc

sorta like why the consitution doesn't mention air travel, cause there was NO SUCH THING at the time it was written

my guess, and its ONLY A GUESS, is that if voting were around at that time, it WOULD have been mentioned!

I have contented that the amendmant regarding slavery in the constitution is redundant since the rights of ALL MEN were aleady covered in the constitution, just like I'll content that islamics extend the lack of rights for women to include voting, even though its not specificly mentioned

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_women%27s_suffrage_in_majority-Muslim_countries

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

You are free to provide examples of why you think muslim theology is compatible with western civilization. Feel free to show how / why muslim jurisprudence is compatible with western civiliation. Or why rules like not working outside the house, remaining covered at all times, inability to own businesses, half shares of inheritance, unequal treatment under the law, poll taxes for non muslims.

Show me how these are good for western civilization.

Actually you have just described the reality of life for women in 'Western civlisation' until the last century. That is to say, the situation as its was for the entirety of 'western civilisation's' history bar the last century or so. The current situation - that of legal equality, possessing the right to vote etc - came about as a result of political action by women at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries. The current situation of women in the West is very much the exception rather than the rule if one views the question from a historical perspective.

To put that another way, all the complaints you have about Muslim attitudes towards women - "not working outside the house, remaining covered at all times, inability to own businesses, half shares of inheritance, unequal treatment under the law" etc. - are the historical norm in the West.

That seems to answer your question about whether these 'values' are compatible with 'Western civilisation' - for most of western history, these 'values' were the very fabric of 'western civilisation'. Which underlines just how stupid and ill-informed the argument you are advancing is.

It is also worth noting that the advances in status of women in 'western civilisation' were OPPOSED bitterly by the same right wing ideologues who now trumpet the superior status of women in the West in an attempt to make the rest of us share their hatred of Muslims. A glance at the USA tells us these same ideologues are still at it today, trying to turn the clock back and reverse the political/legal/social advances made by women in the West. Which underlines just how hypocritical the argument you are advancing is.

Certainly and thats about the best argument anyone has advanced in the argument tweak.
However, the question (again) isn't what happened 200 or 100 years ago. Western civilization has evolved past denying women the vote, property ownership etc. Muslim religion hasn't. Thats one of several legs of my argument.

Your answer seems to boill down to - "muslim religion isn't compatible now, but it might evolve to be so in a few hundred years."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?

come on man! one minute you ask exactly where does the muslem religion deny women the right to vote, so I check the BOOK, and admit you have a point

THEN you come back and say, why bother checking the book on it cause no matter what you find there it doesn't count anyway!

GEEEZZZZ

I guess with that logic, you CANNOT be wrong no matter what!

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

You are free to provide examples of why you think muslim theology is compatible with western civilization. Feel free to show how / why muslim jurisprudence is compatible with western civiliation. Or why rules like not working outside the house, remaining covered at all times, inability to own businesses, half shares of inheritance, unequal treatment under the law, poll taxes for non muslims.

Show me how these are good for western civilization.

Actually you have just described the reality of life for women in 'Western civlisation' until the last century. That is to say, the situation as its was for the entirety of 'western civilisation's' history bar the last century or so. The current situation - that of legal equality, possessing the right to vote etc - came about as a result of political action by women at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries. The current situation of women in the West is very much the exception rather than the rule if one views the question from a historical perspective.

To put that another way, all the complaints you have about Muslim attitudes towards women - "not working outside the house, remaining covered at all times, inability to own businesses, half shares of inheritance, unequal treatment under the law" etc. - are the historical norm in the West.

That seems to answer your question about whether these 'values' are compatible with 'Western civilisation' - for most of western history, these 'values' were the very fabric of 'western civilisation'. Which underlines just how stupid and ill-informed the argument you are advancing is.

It is also worth noting that the advances in status of women in 'western civilisation' were OPPOSED bitterly by the same right wing ideologues who now trumpet the superior status of women in the West in an attempt to make the rest of us share their hatred of Muslims. A glance at the USA tells us these same ideologues are still at it today, trying to turn the clock back and reverse the political/legal/social advances made by women in the West. Which underlines just how hypocritical the argument you are advancing is.

Certainly and thats about the best argument anyone has advanced in the argument tweak.
However, the question (again) isn't what happened 200 or 100 years ago. Western civilization has evolved past denying women the vote, property ownership etc. Muslim religion hasn't. Thats one of several legs of my argument.

Your answer seems to boill down to - "muslim religion isn't compatible now, but it might evolve to be so in a few hundred years."

Moving the goal posts after conceding a goal isn't allowed.

For the duration of this thread, you have been insisting that Islamic 'values' are not compatible with Western civilisation'. You have made this specious claim repeatedly and demanded that others address it. Now that your claim has been effectively demolished, you are changing the claim and ruling out history. Dumb.

My answer to your claim is not "muslim religion isn't compatible now, but it might evolve to be so in a few hundred years." My answer (detailed in post 183) is that the Muslim 'values' you listed are not only compatible with Western civilisation, but that those values have been an integral part of 'western civilisation' for almost all of Western history. Your claim is idiotic.

Why do you make such nonsensical claims? Because for political/ideological reasons you wish to demonise Arabs and Muslims, and retain Israel at the centre of Western interests and support in the region. Of course that you need to invent such rubbish to promote Zionist interests tells us a lot about those interests and the integrity of Zionism's few remaining fans. If the Zionist cause was just, there would be no need whatsoever to demonise others, or to resort to fiction and invention to justify it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I was responding to another poster who has repeatedly claimed that Muslims as a group, do not allow women to vote.

I asked that person in what *country* that was the case... I had earlier given a link to all the countries where Muslim women have the vote.

At no point did I ask anyone where in the Quran it said anything about women voting, you simply made that up out of thin air.

Your posts make no sense of any kind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?

come on man! one minute you ask exactly where does the muslem religion deny women the right to vote, so I check the BOOK, and admit you have a point

THEN you come back and say, why bother checking the book on it cause no matter what you find there it doesn't count anyway!

GEEEZZZZ

I guess with that logic, you CANNOT be wrong no matter what!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Laughable stuff indeed. Pay no attention to actual *math*. What is freakin amazing is your inability to understand exponential growth, or math, and an unwillingness to call a spade a spade. Lets use your words - doubling every decade.

4.8% in 2011
9.6% in 2021
19.2% in 2031
38.4% in 2041
76.8% in 2051

this says that the muslim population becomes a majority - not in 50 years - but in less than 40. Which is what the *freak* I said.
And if you go to actual estimations of muslim growth in england - you know people that actually study this crap. They say the same thing.

I am so tired of posts such as yours - providing no facts, no supporting evidence and then just ridiculing whose documented evidence disagrees with your position.

You won't even have the intellectual honesty to say. Damn. You were right - the math really does say that. And then since you won't concede the point - you won't even bother to find competing evidence - you'll just say that I'm a racist therefore it can't be true. Or wiki is a know inaccurate site or....

You wouldnt know a fact if it bit you on the arse.

Fact......The thread is about "Why dont Muslims like the U.S
Fact......There are no "no go" areas for police in the UK.
Fact......Sharia Law doesnt supercede UK Law
Fact......More Mosques have had racist attacks on them than Churches
Fact......An eighty year old Muslim was murdered by the same guys who have been planting pipe bombs outside Mosques.
Fact......History proves you wrong about Islam expanding through violence. I have pointed this out in other threads.
Fact......Racists back in the sixties made similar claims about the expansion of the black population. It didnt happen.
Fact......There is a vast difference between Muslim immigrants taking over and second or third generation Muslims.
Fact......And you will love this one..... If we stopped bombing the shit out of these places then the refugees wouldnt need to leave home
Fact......Your own chart shows the growth between 1991 and 2001 has slowed pro-rata to other decades.
Fact......Muslims ruled India and Spain for 700 years and are still a minority of the population

Some reading for you.
http://richleebruce.com/b/1st-world-islam.html

Edited to fix quotes

quote:

Repeating a falsehood doesn't make the falsehood any less false. The question I have posed, from the beginning "is MUSLIM THEOLOGY CONSONANT with WESTERN CIVILIZATION?"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Once again proving that you are intellectually dishonest.
I said britain would be majority muslim if present trends continued in less than 50 years.
You ridiculed and said that the muslims population % was doubling every 50 years.
I used your words, your quote and proved that it would happen in less than 40.

And all that comes back is piss. You were wrong man.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

As for your other "quoted" facts
1. I have never disputed the title of the thread. Various anti-us people more or less post and say - cause you guys bomb us to hell. or the US is scum - or whatever. To which my replay will be I would contend that the Islamic religion doesn't permit it. To get to that point I first advanced the posit that muslim theology is incompatible with western civilization.
2. You keep saying that there are no "no-go" areas. But I have provided tons of quotes that show there are. Including some by sherriffs, bishops, auxiliary bishops etc. You have provided.....
nothing. So at this point the preponderance of the evidence is with me.
3. History proves me wrong about islam expanding through violence. The hell it does. I can provide 3 examples of Islam expanding through violence for every one you show otherwise.
4. "If we stopped bombing the shit".... Really? do please tell me why the US has a significant number of somalian refugees. Since - we didn't bomb the hell out of them..
5. My own chart shows the typical behavior of small numbers. Ie. the first muslim that immigrates to a country - the population expands infinitely. The second muslim only doubles the population. The third - only increases it by 66%. this is why you clearly don't understand exponential growth and why you poo poo'ed the numbers. I curvefitted the data (go to zunzun or any other curve fitting place) and checked my work before I said so. As opposed to you that only offers unsupported words. Most reasonable curvefits show the muslim population doubling in less than 50 years.
6. The point that muslims conquered india and spain and yet now are minorities - doesn't really say much - except that you've just contradicted your point #3. For example.Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India estimates that the muslims killed 80 million people in india over 500 years. What would have happened if they British had not intervened is not know.

Regarding Spain - the muslims in spain were expelled by Ferdinand and Isabella with the aid of the Inquisition. Surely, you're not saying that England has an inquisition in plan? But even if you advance a point about spain - I would merely counter with the point of morroco, or algeria. All of north africa at one time had thriving christian communities. They were surpressed, in many times forcibly.

quote:

so far the ONLY argument I have seen that hold ANY water is as you said, they are a primative people who MAY one day catch up with the rest of the civilized world...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
By 'Muslims', do you mean Arabs? Egyptians? Indonesians? Uighurs? People from various countries in Africa?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_women%27s_suffrage_in_majority-Muslim_countries

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

NO you DID NOT ask or say ANYTHING about WHAT COUNTRY you asked where does the MUSLEM RELIGION DENY

YOUR WORDS are highliighted in BOLD below, see how they differ GREATLY from what you NOW claim you asked???

and since you asked about the MUSLEM RELIGION, the only place I could think to look was in thier HOLY BOOKS!

then you respond with, "is a lot more than simply finding words in the Quran..." implying it doesn't matter what I found in the koran cause you wouldn't have accepted it no matter what!

NOW you claim you asked about COUNTRIES and NOT about MUSLEM RELIGION!

I think it was YOU in another thread that mentioned 1 Mil waiting for the person who can mind read, well I can only respond to what you ACTUALLY WROTE not what you think you meant when you wrote it!

HELL I even conceded that you were RIGHT! that the ISLAMIC religion DOES NOT SPECIFICLY DENY VOTING TO WOMEN!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I was responding to another poster who has repeatedly claimed that Muslims as a group, do not allow women to vote.

I asked that person in what *country* that was the case... I had earlier given a link to all the countries where Muslim women have the vote.

At no point did I ask anyone where in the Quran it said anything about women voting, you simply made that up out of thin air.

Your posts make no sense of any kind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?

come on man! one minute you ask exactly where does the muslem religion deny women the right to vote, so I check the BOOK, and admit you have a point

THEN you come back and say, why bother checking the book on it cause no matter what you find there it doesn't count anyway!

GEEEZZZZ

I guess with that logic, you CANNOT be wrong no matter what!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
By 'Muslims', do you mean Arabs? Egyptians? Indonesians? Uighurs? People from various countries in Africa?

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4504922

And here of course, is the part you carefully edited out of your claim I never said anything about countries:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_women%27s_suffrage_in_majority-Muslim_countries

Now, one more time: B O O K




and: C O U N T R Y

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

NO you DID NOT ask or say ANYTHING about WHAT COUNTRY you asked where does the MUSLEM RELIGION DENY

YOUR WORDS are highliighted in BOLD below, see how they differ GREATLY from what you NOW claim you asked???

and since you asked about the MUSLEM RELIGION, the only place I could think to look was in thier HOLY BOOKS!

then you respond with, "is a lot more than simply finding words in the Quran..." implying it doesn't matter what I found in the koran cause you wouldn't have accepted it no matter what!

NOW you claim you asked about COUNTRIES and NOT about MUSLEM RELIGION!

I think it was YOU in another thread that mentioned 1 Mil waiting for the person who can mind read, well I can only respond to what you ACTUALLY WROTE not what you think you meant when you wrote it!

HELL I even conceded that you were RIGHT! that the ISLAMIC religion DOES NOT SPECIFICLY DENY VOTING TO WOMEN!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I was responding to another poster who has repeatedly claimed that Muslims as a group, do not allow women to vote.

I asked that person in what *country* that was the case... I had earlier given a link to all the countries where Muslim women have the vote.

At no point did I ask anyone where in the Quran it said anything about women voting, you simply made that up out of thin air.

Your posts make no sense of any kind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?

come on man! one minute you ask exactly where does the muslem religion deny women the right to vote, so I check the BOOK, and admit you have a point

THEN you come back and say, why bother checking the book on it cause no matter what you find there it doesn't count anyway!

GEEEZZZZ

I guess with that logic, you CANNOT be wrong no matter what!

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani



Schilderswijk Den Haag Holland, now try and find a native dutch person for me please.

That's the Hague for you, there is the international peace palace and such

Remember this is not a joke but everyday reality if you live there.

Your turn...

quote:

Schilderswijk Den Haag Holland, now try and find a native dutch person for me please.