quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

The one question I have asked has been - for the 21rst time in this thread: Is muslim theology consonant with western civilization."

I have no doubt that you want to talk about other ideas. You want to shift the topic to something favorable to your world view. The thread is why do arabs hate US. I want to develop the idea that there is a good chance they hate us because their religion contributes. Now, if we ever get to the part where we have widespread agreement, that OK islam is not compatible with western civilization then I will move on to other points. But I want to address this one point at a time.

I wonder what claims you think I have advanced that are "diametrically opposed" to history. Since as far as I remember, what I have posted is quotes from the Quran, and examples of fatwah rulings which are islamics imam's interpretations of the Quran. Both are fair game for the topic of "is muslim theology consonant with western civilization".

If you want to open a thread to discuss american realpolitik in South America, asia, or other parts of the world, you are welcome to do so.
And in fact I have no question that American activities are germane to the discussion. Just as I have no question that Muslim theology is germane.

Let me turn the question around on you - why are you so unwilling to even discuss the point that muslim theology *might* be a contributing cause?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Phydeaux
The question I have posed, from the beginning "is MUSLIM THEOLOGY CONSONANT with WESTERN CIVILIZATION?"

And as far as I can tell, other than you making one small argument, no one has bothered to even formally discuss it let alone, as you say, demolished it.

At this point - since no one after pages and pages of discussion has even bothered to try to discuss the matter - I have to conclude you are conceding the point - that muslim theology is incompatible with western civilization

When I examined your claims in detail, I found that your claims were diametrically opposite to the historical record. Others have made similar conclusions. Constantly shifting your position once it is challenged and seen to be untenable doesn't help your case at all. Perhaps one reason why people are reluctant to examine your claims in detail is that they are too stupid to merit such examination.

I still await your explanation why you ignore political, economic and military factors, all of which are potentially capable of explaining why the West, and in particular the USA, is so on the nose in the Arab world. An assumption that the only or main reason for this discord is religious/theological is far fetched at first glance. Thus far, you have been unable or unwilling to offer a coherent reason why we should ignore the political realities of the situation. Nor have you offered any evidence to support your claims that withstands scrutiny. So your claims remain far fetched.

There are plenty of non-Arab and/or non-Muslim countries (eg. Central and South America) where the USA is also on the nose. No one claims that the reasons for this are theological or religious. Most would agree that the cause(s) are mainly political and economic. So why are Arabs a special case? Why are the obvious political/economic commonalities ignored?

As has been pointed out many times, bombing, invading and occupying foreign countries, installing, arming and supporting local (usually bloodthirsty) tyrants and exploiting those nation's resources all constitute compelling reasons why the locals might dislike the USA. So very strong and compelling reasons are needed before these factors can be eliminated. Thus far none have been advanced.. Why do you insist that realpolitik factors are irrelevant and that the only answer to the question posed in the OP is religious/theological?

To me one obvious reason for this glaring omission from your ... ahem ... 'analysis' is that it doesn't suit your ideologically driven view of the world, and in particular your support for the apartheid State of Israel. Nothing you have posted to date leads me to question this view. Is there any reason why your claims ought not be dismissed as an another ideologically driven pro-Zionist rant, as divorced from reality as other Zionist propaganda?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Now you are simply making up nonsense.

Yes, you did edit out half of what you quoted... the half that made it clear that I was talking about countries 'where' women were allowed to vote. I never asked 'where' in the book.

The claim that I never said anything about countries is untrue. Anyone can read exactly what I said about countries, and they can see that I wasn't talking about the Quran.

The claim that you didn't falsify the quote is untrue, anyone can see where you edited out the whole part that clearly contained the words 'Muslim countries', and linked to an article not on the Quran, but on (gasp) Muslim countries..

Your claim that I meant 'where in the Quran' after it has been proven to you that I was not talking about the Quran at all, is the biggest untruth. There is no post on the topic from me saying 'where in the Quran', and you jumped into a thread about Arabs, and about how various countries around the world implement Islam differently because they have different cultures, with the ignorant stereotype that all Muslims are blind robots who can't cross the street without consulting the Quran.

That's pure bigotry, and I'll thank you to keep it out of my conversation with someone else.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

I didn't edit out ANYTHING, you posted a LINK, what written in that link is NEITHER your words nor part of the ACTUAL QUESTION you asked...

you said, " And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?"

and that is the TOTAL EXTENT of what you ASKED
you then posted a LINK, to show SUPPORT for the postion that the MUSLEM RELIGION doesn't deny women the right to vote, by showing some mulsem contries do aloow women to vote!

AT NO POINT did you ask what MUSLEM COUNTRIES denied women the right to vote!

you can PRETEND anything you like, but its right there for EVERYONE TO SEE!

and you can throw up the link to a DIFFERANT POST you made, all you want! but I DID NOT REPLY TO THAT POST, the post I replied to was Post #: 193 which says NONE of what you NOW claim I EDITED OUT!

completely DIFFERANT POST!

ya know I read the things you post in other threads and think, here is a reasonable person, objective etc etc etc, then you pull THIS!

NONE of what is in THIS POST
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4504922
is on the post I REPLIED TO!

then you ACCUSE me of cerfully editing things OUT!

PLEASE go to post #193 QUOTE THE ENTIRE POST in a reply and HIGHLIGHT where ANY of that is IN THAT POST!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_women%27s_suffrage_in_majority-Muslim_countries

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

You are free to provide examples of why you think muslim theology is compatible with western civilization. Feel free to show how / why muslim jurisprudence is compatible with western civiliation. Or why rules like not working outside the house, remaining covered at all times, inability to own businesses, half shares of inheritance, unequal treatment under the law, poll taxes for non muslims.

Show me how these are good for western civilization.

Actually you have just described the reality of life for women in 'Western civlisation' until the last century. That is to say, the situation as its was for the entirety of 'western civilisation's' history bar the last century or so. The current situation - that of legal equality, possessing the right to vote etc - came about as a result of political action by women at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries. The current situation of women in the West is very much the exception rather than the rule if one views the question from a historical perspective.

To put that another way, all the complaints you have about Muslim attitudes towards women - "not working outside the house, remaining covered at all times, inability to own businesses, half shares of inheritance, unequal treatment under the law" etc. - are the historical norm in the West.

That seems to answer your question about whether these 'values' are compatible with 'Western civilisation' - for most of western history, these 'values' were the very fabric of 'western civilisation'. Which underlines just how stupid and ill-informed the argument you are advancing is.

It is also worth noting that the advances in status of women in 'western civilisation' were OPPOSED bitterly by the same right wing ideologues who now trumpet the superior status of women in the West in an attempt to make the rest of us share their hatred of Muslims. A glance at the USA tells us these same ideologues are still at it today, trying to turn the clock back and reverse the political/legal/social advances made by women in the West. Which underlines just how hypocritical the argument you are advancing is.

Certainly and thats about the best argument anyone has advanced in the argument tweak.
However, the question (again) isn't what happened 200 or 100 years ago. Western civilization has evolved past denying women the vote, property ownership etc. Muslim religion hasn't. Thats one of several legs of my argument.

Your answer seems to boill down to - "muslim religion isn't compatible now, but it might evolve to be so in a few hundred years."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_women%27s_suffrage_in_majority-Muslim_countries

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

here is the post I replied to, I have bot edited or changed a SINGLE WORD, now please REPLY TO THIS with QUOTE and HIGHLIGHT the text you CLAIM I edited out of it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani



Maybe this image will trigger some sense.
Never heard an arab tell you there are no gay people in arabia????

quote:

If you want to open a thread to discuss american realpolitik in South America, asia, or other parts of the world, you are welcome to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

One more time. I never said 'Where in the Quran does it say women can't vote'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And where exactly does 'the Muslim religion' deny women the right to vote?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_first_women%27s_suffrage_in_majority-Muslim_countries

You just assumed that because you couldn't be bothered to read the whole thing. Had you done so, it would have been crystal clear that I was asking 'Where in the *world* do Muslim countries keep women from voting?'.


Simply admit that you didn't bother to read before jumping to the wrong conclusion, and move on. Or keep printing tantrums in any sized font you want, and pretending I was talking about the Quran when I wasn't, not my problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

here is the post I replied to, I have bot edited or changed a SINGLE WORD, now please REPLY TO THIS with QUOTE and HIGHLIGHT the text you CLAIM I edited out of it!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Again... It doesn't matter what size font you use to deny reality, that isn't my problem.

Note that other people have had no problem discerning that the topic is the various cultures and countries that embrace Islam.


If you have anything on topic that is either correct or useful be sure and let us know, m'kay?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

yeah thats what I thought, call me a lair then when your CANNOT back up you words you just DISMISS IT!

as for denying REALITY, ummm the REALITY is in BLACK and WHITE, and it YOU thats DENYING REALITY! REALITY is what you REALLY WROTE, not what you now want to PRETEND YOU WROTE!

like you said in another thread, no one is a MIND READER, I responded to the ACTUAL QUESTION YOU ASKED, not my fault you didn't actually TYPE what you meant to ask

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Again... It doesn't matter what size font you use to deny reality, that isn't my problem.

Note that other people have had no problem discerning that the topic is the various cultures and countries that embrace Islam.


If you have anything on topic that is either correct or useful be sure and let us know, m'kay?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Other than purely fictional nonsense, do you have anything that is on topic, is correct, or is useful?

Or are you simply trying to derail yet another thread with another one of these name calling tantrums?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

yeah thats what I thought, call me a lair then when your CANNOT back up you words you just DISMISS IT!

as for denying REALITY, ummm the REALITY is in BLACK and WHITE, and it YOU thats DENYING REALITY! REALITY is what you REALLY WROTE, not what you now want to PRETEND YOU WROTE!

like you said in another thread, no one is a MIND READER, I responded to the ACTUAL QUESTION YOU ASKED, not my fault you didn't actually TYPE what you meant to ask

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Again... It doesn't matter what size font you use to deny reality, that isn't my problem.

Note that other people have had no problem discerning that the topic is the various cultures and countries that embrace Islam.


If you have anything on topic that is either correct or useful be sure and let us know, m'kay?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

HEY you started the name calling by calling ME a liar!

you apologize for calling me a LAIR and I'll gladly let it drop!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Other than purely fictional nonsense, do you have anything that is on topic, is correct, or is useful?

Or are you simply trying to derail yet another thread with another one of these name calling tantrums?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

yeah thats what I thought, call me a lair then when your CANNOT back up you words you just DISMISS IT!

as for denying REALITY, ummm the REALITY is in BLACK and WHITE, and it YOU thats DENYING REALITY! REALITY is what you REALLY WROTE, not what you now want to PRETEND YOU WROTE!

like you said in another thread, no one is a MIND READER, I responded to the ACTUAL QUESTION YOU ASKED, not my fault you didn't actually TYPE what you meant to ask

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Again... It doesn't matter what size font you use to deny reality, that isn't my problem.

Note that other people have had no problem discerning that the topic is the various cultures and countries that embrace Islam.


If you have anything on topic that is either correct or useful be sure and let us know, m'kay?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

If you want to open a thread to discuss american realpolitik in South America, asia, or other parts of the world, you are welcome to do so.

That question can be dealt with here on this thread, Phydeaux. Tweakabelle doesn't need to start a new thread. On the other hand, you could start a thread yourself on the question of 'Should the question of 'Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. instantly be turned into one of 'Islam isn't congruent with Western Values?'.

I think you believe that you have some right to define the central question here, Phydeaux. You don't. Just saying.

There's nothing in this thread's title at all that demands an argument about Islam versus the West. We simply do not have to detain ourselves on that question if we don't think it's the most relevant question - as a lot of us clearly don't.

I really do think it's time to move on, now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Link?

And don't bother wasting my time by claiming that when I posted the unaltered quote that you altered, I was calling you a liar. Post a link to where I actually said the words that you keep ranting about in large font.


Otherwise I'll take that as a 'Yes' that you are simply trying to drag another thread down, and have no actual interest in a discussion... or in letting other people have a discussion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

HEY you started the name calling by calling ME a liar!

you apologize for calling me a LAIR and I'll gladly let it drop!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Other than purely fictional nonsense, do you have anything that is on topic, is correct, or is useful?

Or are you simply trying to derail yet another thread with another one of these name calling tantrums?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

yeah thats what I thought, call me a lair then when your CANNOT back up you words you just DISMISS IT!

as for denying REALITY, ummm the REALITY is in BLACK and WHITE, and it YOU thats DENYING REALITY! REALITY is what you REALLY WROTE, not what you now want to PRETEND YOU WROTE!

like you said in another thread, no one is a MIND READER, I responded to the ACTUAL QUESTION YOU ASKED, not my fault you didn't actually TYPE what you meant to ask

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Again... It doesn't matter what size font you use to deny reality, that isn't my problem.

Note that other people have had no problem discerning that the topic is the various cultures and countries that embrace Islam.


If you have anything on topic that is either correct or useful be sure and let us know, m'kay?

quote:

*chuckles* Moving to Canada and getting a different news stream was certainly an eye opener... and even then it's still reasonably tightly aligned with America. Even so the view is radically different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

And yet you still refuse to define either 'Muslim theology', or 'Western values', and at every attempt to have a discussion with you, you flip-flop on your usage of the terms, then run away crying 'victory'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

The one question I have asked has been - for the 21rst time in this thread: Is muslim theology consonant with western civilization."

I have no doubt that you want to talk about other ideas. You want to shift the topic to something favorable to your world view. The thread is why do arabs hate US. I want to develop the idea that there is a good chance they hate us because their religion contributes. Now, if we ever get to the part where we have widespread agreement, that OK islam is not compatible with western civilization then I will move on to other points. But I want to address this one point at a time.

I wonder what claims you think I have advanced that are "diametrically opposed" to history. Since as far as I remember, what I have posted is quotes from the Quran, and examples of fatwah rulings which are islamics imam's interpretations of the Quran. Both are fair game for the topic of "is muslim theology consonant with western civilization".

If you want to open a thread to discuss american realpolitik in South America, asia, or other parts of the world, you are welcome to do so.
And in fact I have no question that American activities are germane to the discussion. Just as I have no question that Muslim theology is germane.

Let me turn the question around on you - why are you so unwilling to even discuss the point that muslim theology *might* be a contributing cause?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Phydeaux
The question I have posed, from the beginning "is MUSLIM THEOLOGY CONSONANT with WESTERN CIVILIZATION?"

And as far as I can tell, other than you making one small argument, no one has bothered to even formally discuss it let alone, as you say, demolished it.

At this point - since no one after pages and pages of discussion has even bothered to try to discuss the matter - I have to conclude you are conceding the point - that muslim theology is incompatible with western civilization

When I examined your claims in detail, I found that your claims were diametrically opposite to the historical record. Others have made similar conclusions. Constantly shifting your position once it is challenged and seen to be untenable doesn't help your case at all. Perhaps one reason why people are reluctant to examine your claims in detail is that they are too stupid to merit such examination.

I still await your explanation why you ignore political, economic and military factors, all of which are potentially capable of explaining why the West, and in particular the USA, is so on the nose in the Arab world. An assumption that the only or main reason for this discord is religious/theological is far fetched at first glance. Thus far, you have been unable or unwilling to offer a coherent reason why we should ignore the political realities of the situation. Nor have you offered any evidence to support your claims that withstands scrutiny. So your claims remain far fetched.

There are plenty of non-Arab and/or non-Muslim countries (eg. Central and South America) where the USA is also on the nose. No one claims that the reasons for this are theological or religious. Most would agree that the cause(s) are mainly political and economic. So why are Arabs a special case? Why are the obvious political/economic commonalities ignored?

As has been pointed out many times, bombing, invading and occupying foreign countries, installing, arming and supporting local (usually bloodthirsty) tyrants and exploiting those nation's resources all constitute compelling reasons why the locals might dislike the USA. So very strong and compelling reasons are needed before these factors can be eliminated. Thus far none have been advanced.. Why do you insist that realpolitik factors are irrelevant and that the only answer to the question posed in the OP is religious/theological?

To me one obvious reason for this glaring omission from your ... ahem ... 'analysis' is that it doesn't suit your ideologically driven view of the world, and in particular your support for the apartheid State of Israel. Nothing you have posted to date leads me to question this view. Is there any reason why your claims ought not be dismissed as an another ideologically driven pro-Zionist rant, as divorced from reality as other Zionist propaganda?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

If you want to open a thread to discuss american realpolitik in South America, asia, or other parts of the world, you are welcome to do so.

That question can be dealt with here on this thread, Phydeaux. Tweakabelle doesn't need to start a new thread. On the other hand, you could start a thread yourself on the question of 'Should the question of 'Why Arabs Don't Like the U.S. instantly be turned into one of 'Islam isn't congruent with Western Values?'.

I think you believe that you have some right to define the central question here, Phydeaux. You don't. Just saying.

There's nothing in this thread's title at all that demands an argument about Islam versus the West. We simply do not have to detain ourselves on that question if we don't think it's the most relevant question - as a lot of us clearly don't.

I really do think it's time to move on, now.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Sorry still here. Still posting the same answers which you will ignore again. Once again I am not interested in values. The question - now repeated for the 22nd time. Is muslim theology consonant with western civilization.

I told you were free to use any mainstream Islamic theology. For example, Sunni, Sufi, Druze, Shia.
I told you were free to use any G-7 civilization.

You've distorted, avoided, mixed the question - and basically flat out chose not to answer the question asked.

Have a nice day.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Which question is that again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux


Do you think the values espoused in the Muslim religion are consonant with western civilization. Yes or No?

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4499778

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Sorry still here. Still posting the same answers which you will ignore again. Once again I am not interested in values. The question - now repeated for the 22nd time. Is muslim theology consonant with western civilization.

I told you were free to use any mainstream Islamic theology. For example, Sunni, Sufi, Druze, Shia.
I told you were free to use any G-7 civilization.

You've distorted, avoided, mixed the question - and basically flat out chose not to answer the question asked.

Have a nice day.

So which is it again? Values or theology? Culturally don't allow music and dancing, or fanatic zealots use religious dogma to ban those things?

Who to believe, who to believe?

You aren't even trying to keep up the appearance of honesty.