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RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:01:19 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Back to the realm of personal property defense. When you can leave the scene, or not enter the scene, in public, SYG should not apply.

Just my opinion. I have no issue with self defense, I have an issue with SYG laws.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 741
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:03:15 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
It's sort of amazing that when violent crime was much more common and concealed carry was illegal almost universally that anyone survived.


Oh really? Then why do D.C. and Chicago...two places with the strictest gun control laws in the country have the highest murder rates?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 742
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:04:48 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Because the outlying areas have such lax laws.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 743
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:05:45 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		It's mob rule when a state passes a popular law that violates the US Constitution... This case had absolutely nothing to do with SYG.


Agree totally that any anger should be channeled into other than rioting. Seems ironic that the same anger is fueled by the media continuously misstating the laws though.

Your idea would work if a national amendment to the Constitution (nullifying Graham and Garner) were passed, not a state level law.

And then, nationwide, the next 17 year old who was on her back being battered by someone bigger than her, would simply have to lie back and enjoy waiting for the police, per the new standards on self defense.

ETA: Unintended consequences, either way we go.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

How is a petition and an election mob rule? If you don't like a law you change it through the voting boot and the majority will rule. Florida's version of stand your ground goes beyond a vehicle or residence and this was directly a contributing factor in this young mans unnecessary death.

Zimmerman was found not guilty and it was the correct verdict under the circumstances of verifiable evidence but it does not make it right or moral.

I am just saying the anger should be directed where it will do some good and not in rioting.

Butch



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/13/2013 10:09:34 PM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 744
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:06:03 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Back to where children, or anyone for that matter, are not stalked, confronted, and legally killed... when it was not necessary. Back to the law before 2004... back to the law that governs the majority of other states with stand your ground laws...back to common sense.

Of course this is just my opinion but tragedies like this may just change other minds.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 745
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:06:26 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

How is a petition and an election mob rule? If you don't like a law you change it through the voting boot and the majority will rule. Florida's version of stand your ground goes beyond a vehicle or residence and this was directly a contributing factor in this young mans unnecessary death.

Zimmerman was found not guilty and it was the correct verdict under the circumstances of verifiable evidence but it does not make it right or moral.

I am just saying the anger should be directed where it will do some good and not in rioting.

Butch


and hows voting the bums out been workin for ya?

bad information you do not change shit by voting.

you change it with jury nullification.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 746
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:07:43 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because the outlying areas have such lax laws.

Then why don't the outlying areas have such high crime rates.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 747
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:07:54 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because the outlying areas have such lax laws.


Red herring. The guns are out there and will continue to be. Making concealed carry illegal only takes the guns away from those who obey the laws. The criminals do not obey gun control laws.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 748
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:08:08 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Oh really? Then why do D.C. and Chicago...two places with the strictest gun control laws in the country have the highest murder rates?

If PolicyMic is to be believed, neither Chicago nor D.C. made the top ten in 2012.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/22686/america-s-10-deadliest-cities-2012

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 749
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:08:36 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Especially self defense for (dare I say it?) people who don't look like a Kennedy?

That last was absolutely not directed at kdsub's understandable wish for legislation that would have kept Martin alive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The Florida statues on self defense were written decades ago, to match the US Supreme Court's ruling setting the new standard... 'a reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm'. That's the standard the jury was told to apply. Not SYG, not child abuse, not dueling, not any of the media's hype.


It would make them feel better. And the goal for some was to undermine self defense all along.



< Message edited by Powergamz1 -- 7/13/2013 10:20:22 PM >

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 750
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:09:41 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Back to where children, or anyone for that matter, are not stalked, confronted, and legally killed... when it was not necessary. Back to the law before 2004... back to the law that governs the majority of other states with stand your ground laws...back to common sense.

Of course this is just my opinion but tragedies like this may just change other minds.

Butch

Sounds nice but you didn't even try to answer my question,


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 751
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:09:55 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because the outlying areas have such lax laws.


Red herring. The guns are out there and will continue to be. Making concealed carry illegal only takes the guns away from those who obey the laws. The criminals do not obey gun control laws.


Of course they are out there. Gun owners dont believe in personal responsibility. The bad guys get em from the good guys, and you guys just pat each other on the backs, wink and nod and carry on about your business.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 752
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:10:34 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Oh really? Then why do D.C. and Chicago...two places with the strictest gun control laws in the country have the highest murder rates?

If PolicyMic is to be believed, neither Chicago nor D.C. made the top ten in 2012.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/22686/america-s-10-deadliest-cities-2012


Then simply substitute those two cities for Detroit and New Orleans and the point stands.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 753
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:11:03 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Garner was in the 1980s IIRC, there is no 2004 law that has anything to do with this case.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Back to where children, or anyone for that matter, are not stalked, confronted, and legally killed... when it was not necessary. Back to the law before 2004... back to the law that governs the majority of other states with stand your ground laws...back to common sense.

Of course this is just my opinion but tragedies like this may just change other minds.

Butch



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 754
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:12:37 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-was-born-of-2004-case-but-story-has-been/1225164

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 755
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:13:38 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
a brown skinned man ...


You've only said that about 30 times already, and I've still got three more pages of the thread to read.

(in reply to Powergamz1)
Profile   Post #: 756
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:13:38 PM   
DarqueMirror


Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Of course they are out there. Gun owners dont believe in personal responsibility. The bad guys get em from the good guys, and you guys just pat each other on the backs, wink and nod and carry on about your business.


That's it. Blame law abiding citizens for the actions of criminals. Good call.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 757
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:13:57 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Because the outlying areas have such lax laws.


Red herring. The guns are out there and will continue to be. Making concealed carry illegal only takes the guns away from those who obey the laws. The criminals do not obey gun control laws.


Of course they are out there. Gun owners dont believe in personal responsibility. The bad guys get em from the good guys, and you guys just pat each other on the backs, wink and nod and carry on about your business.

A small percentage may not the majority do if only because guns are expensive.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 758
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:14:22 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Of course they are out there. Gun owners dont believe in personal responsibility. The bad guys get em from the good guys, and you guys just pat each other on the backs, wink and nod and carry on about your business.


That's it. Blame law abiding citizens for the actions of criminals. Good call.


I own a gun.

I have been blaming them all along.

Do I need to pull up all the recent children's deaths to prove my point?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)
Profile   Post #: 759
RE: UNMODERATED ZIMMERMAN - 7/13/2013 10:15:10 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Yep... and you've only lied about the facts, how many times?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1
a brown skinned man ...


You've only said that about 30 times already, and I've still got three more pages of the thread to read.




_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 760
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