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Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/15/2013 10:59:41 PM

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Leader of Zetas drug cartel seized, Mexico says

quote:

Treviño Morales secured his own violent rise in the Zetas after the killing of Heriberto Lazcano, then the group's top commander, last October. Lazcano died in a shootout with naval forces. Shortly afterward, his body was spirited from the morgue by an armed commando and never recovered, in one of the more bizarre episodes of this long battle with cartels.

The Zetas were formed nearly a decade ago by leaders of the Gulf cartel as their muscle, recruited from a group of deserters from the Mexican army. But the Zetas eventually split from the cartel and surpassed it, spreading its operations through southern Mexico and Central America and exhibiting levels of brutality not previously seen with such regularity. Beheadings, massacres of migrants, torture and dismembering of live victims all became routine parts of the Zetas repertoire.

He was also wanted for the slaughter of 260 migrants who were dumped into mass graves in Tamaulipas. A truly evil scumbag.

Of course, now there will be others fighting to move in and take his place. Peña Nieto will still have his hands full down there.

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 12:18:21 AM

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$5 says he's going to mysteriously walk through the locked door and past several armed guards, who will suddenly come into money in the near future. Completely unrelated, of course.

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 1:50:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

$5 says he's going to mysteriously walk through the locked door and past several armed guards, who will suddenly come into money in the near future. Completely unrelated, of course.

Big deal, another crime boss gets busted or killed. But with the black market the continuing political/economic status quo...there will always be another.

As for escaping, you may be correct. All he has to do is get past the guards seeing-eye dogs and they can be drugged.

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 8:00:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

$5 says he's going to mysteriously walk through the locked door and past several armed guards, who will suddenly come into money in the near future. Completely unrelated, of course.

Big deal, another crime boss gets busted or killed. But with the black market the continuing political/economic status quo...there will always be another.

As for escaping, you may be correct. All he has to do is get past the guards seeing-eye dogs and they can be drugged.

Why bother escaping? He could probably just relocate the main office into the prison and double his staff of guards for free. They're probably already installing his high-speed internet connection into the cell as we speak.

_____________________________

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The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 8:41:02 AM

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What's to celebrate? One animal gets busted and before he's locked up in a cell, he's been replaced and it's business as usual.

Does anyone think this will make a blind bit of difference? Does any one think this arrest will stop the tsunami of fatalities, which have exceeded 90,000 in Mexico alone? Does any one seriously believe that this arrest will reduce the demand for drugs in the USA? .... or the supply of drugs from South of the border?

Is there any one left who thinks the 'War on Drugs' is winnable? Is there any one out there who still thinks that the 'Wars' on Drugs/Communism/Terrorism are separate struggles? If there is, I've got news for you - you are hallucinating.

When are people going to face facts and realise that all this is a colossal waste of lives, time, resources and money?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/16/2013 8:45:49 AM >

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 11:08:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

What's to celebrate? One animal gets busted and before he's locked up in a cell, he's been replaced and it's business as usual.

Does anyone think this will make a blind bit of difference? Does any one think this arrest will stop the tsunami of fatalities, which have exceeded 90,000 in Mexico alone? Does any one seriously believe that this arrest will reduce the demand for drugs in the USA? .... or the supply of drugs from South of the border?

Is there any one left who thinks the 'War on Drugs' is winnable? Is there any one out there who still thinks that the 'Wars' on Drugs/Communism/Terrorism are separate struggles? If there is, I've got news for you - you are hallucinating.

When are people going to face facts and realise that all this is a colossal waste of lives, time, resources and money?

Ah, ever to the far left of any argument.

It depends what you mean by "winnable". Can we stop people from using drugs. No.
Is it worthwhile to control the spread of drugs - yes.

Same logic applies to why we have drug classificatiosn in the first place. The same reason we have meat inspections, labor rules etc.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 12:45:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

$5 says he's going to mysteriously walk through the locked door and past several armed guards, who will suddenly come into money in the near future. Completely unrelated, of course.

Either that, or he may turn up dead in his cell under mysterious circumstances.

(in reply to WebWanderer)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 12:58:56 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

What's to celebrate? One animal gets busted and before he's locked up in a cell, he's been replaced and it's business as usual.

Does anyone think this will make a blind bit of difference? Does any one think this arrest will stop the tsunami of fatalities, which have exceeded 90,000 in Mexico alone? Does any one seriously believe that this arrest will reduce the demand for drugs in the USA? .... or the supply of drugs from South of the border?

Is there any one left who thinks the 'War on Drugs' is winnable? Is there any one out there who still thinks that the 'Wars' on Drugs/Communism/Terrorism are separate struggles? If there is, I've got news for you - you are hallucinating.

When are people going to face facts and realise that all this is a colossal waste of lives, time, resources and money?

Ah, ever to the far left of any argument.

It depends what you mean by "winnable". Can we stop people from using drugs. No.
Is it worthwhile to control the spread of drugs - yes.

Same logic applies to why we have drug classificatiosn in the first place. The same reason we have meat inspections, labor rules etc.

True, but those examples are within the realm of legal commerce. Prohibition keeps it all underground, making it all the more difficult to control. It didn't work with Prohibition during the 1920s, and society has since acknowledged that. If it was legalized, then people would obtain their supply from legitimate sellers who would be subject to regulation and taxation, just as it is with alcohol and cigarettes. As long as taxes remain reasonable and don't force people into the black market (which is where society seems to be headed with tobacco these days), then perhaps a reasonable level of positive control can be maintained over the situation. Addiction, like alcoholism, can be then treated as a medical issue without the stigma of "criminality" hanging over it.

A lot of this current violence would likely subside, too. Plus, it would be a much-needed source of revenue for our cash-strapped governments at the moment. It could be a win-win for all.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 1:13:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

When are people going to face facts and realise that all this is a colossal waste of lives, time, resources and money?

What's the alternative...do nothing? Legalize everything including LSD, cocaine, heroin, and the virtually unlimited number of designer drugs that are following?

_____________________________

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"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 1:17:44 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

What's to celebrate? One animal gets busted and before he's locked up in a cell, he's been replaced and it's business as usual.

Does anyone think this will make a blind bit of difference? Does any one think this arrest will stop the tsunami of fatalities, which have exceeded 90,000 in Mexico alone? Does any one seriously believe that this arrest will reduce the demand for drugs in the USA? .... or the supply of drugs from South of the border?

Is there any one left who thinks the 'War on Drugs' is winnable? Is there any one out there who still thinks that the 'Wars' on Drugs/Communism/Terrorism are separate struggles? If there is, I've got news for you - you are hallucinating.

When are people going to face facts and realise that all this is a colossal waste of lives, time, resources and money?

So what is your suggestion? Just ignore them.

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 1:47:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
True, but those examples are within the realm of legal commerce. Prohibition keeps it all underground, making it all the more difficult to control. It didn't work with Prohibition during the 1920s, and society has since acknowledged that. If it was legalized, then people would obtain their supply from legitimate sellers who would be subject to regulation and taxation, just as it is with alcohol and cigarettes. As long as taxes remain reasonable and don't force people into the black market (which is where society seems to be headed with tobacco these days), then perhaps a reasonable level of positive control can be maintained over the situation. Addiction, like alcoholism, can be then treated as a medical issue without the stigma of "criminality" hanging over it.

This all sounds well and good unless you know what it's like to be a junkie. I have a family member that's been using legally obtained prescription pain medication since they were a teenager. I can tell you from personal experience that just because what they do is legal doesn't prevent them from adopting the same "criminal" personality traits you would expect from a street junkie.

quote:

Plus, it would be a much-needed source of revenue for our cash-strapped governments at the moment.

IMO, this is probably the worst logical argument for the legalization of drugs.

quote:

It could be a win-win for all.

Anyone who really thinks this is completely naive.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to Zonie63)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 8:03:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

$5 says he's going to mysteriously walk through the locked door and past several armed guards, who will suddenly come into money in the near future. Completely unrelated, of course.

Either that, or he may turn up dead in his cell under mysterious circumstances.

Imagine Eric Holder's response?
"WHAT!!! They took him ALIVE???" ("Gulp")
"Bring the car around!"

_____________________________

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/16/2013 9:10:38 PM

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quote:

quote:

Plus, it would be a much-needed source of revenue for our cash-strapped governments at the moment.

IMO, this is probably the worst logical argument for the legalization of drugs.

Yup. Back in the Russian Empire, the government made a lot of money by taxing alcohol: the more people drank, the more money for the Powers That Be. Seeing as the entire country is filled with (semi-)functional alcoholics, that probably wasn't a very good long-term strategy.

_____________________________

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/17/2013 4:14:13 AM

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quote:

RottenJohnny

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

When are people going to face facts and realise that all this is a colossal waste of lives, time, resources and money?

What's the alternative...do nothing?

There are a number of alternatives available ranging from removing all restrictions and sanctions on drug use to various models of decriminalisation and levels of regulation. Posing two extremes - blanket prohibition or doing nothing - is a false dichotomy, as well as being hopelessly simplistic.

What is abundantly clear is that the current policy of blanket prohibition has failed, and failed miserably, totally and irredeemably. It is clear that the current approach has failed everywhere it has been tried. Nor will increasing penalties work - the death penalties that are in place in a number of countries haven't succeeded in stopping the drug trade, rather these countries tend to have more severe drug problems than those countries that have adopted more realistic or nuanced policies.

Whatever alternative model is adopted, it is critical that drug use needs to be seen as a health issue, not a legal or moral one. Nor is it a matter of one size fits all. It is likely that culturally sensitive drug policies, tailored to local needs and conditions, will have far more chance of success than the current blanket prohibitions that have failed so utterly.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 7/17/2013 4:24:18 AM >

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/17/2013 6:25:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

This all sounds well and good unless you know what it's like to be a junkie. I have a family member that's been using legally obtained prescription pain medication since they were a teenager. I can tell you from personal experience that just because what they do is legal doesn't prevent them from adopting the same "criminal" personality traits you would expect from a street junkie.

While I can empathize with your family situation, I don't think it's a proper role of government to protect people from themselves.

Think of what you're saying here, especially in the context of all the violence taking place and the particularly gruesome aspects of it. Beheadings, massacres, torture, dismemberment of innocent people - all because some old ladies in government think they want to save addicts who are hellbent on killing themselves anyway.

It's just not worth it, in my opinion.

quote:

quote:

Plus, it would be a much-needed source of revenue for our cash-strapped governments at the moment.

IMO, this is probably the worst logical argument for the legalization of drugs.

How so? I think it's a perfectly valid and practical argument. It's not the only argument I would make, but I can't see anything wrong with it. Perhaps you can enlighten as to what the problem is with it.

quote:

quote:

It could be a win-win for all.

Anyone who really thinks this is completely naive.

Again, I'm looking at the results of what we're doing already. It's not working. The excessive violence in Mexico is proof positive of this, so the status quo should not be continued.

To think that continuing with drug prohibition will lead to anything good for society is, in my opinion, far more naive than what you're saying here. The whole idea has been terribly naive from the very start, and innocent people are being killed because of this naivete.

(in reply to RottenJohnny)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/17/2013 6:31:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

quote:

quote:

Plus, it would be a much-needed source of revenue for our cash-strapped governments at the moment.

IMO, this is probably the worst logical argument for the legalization of drugs.

Yup. Back in the Russian Empire, the government made a lot of money by taxing alcohol: the more people drank, the more money for the Powers That Be. Seeing as the entire country is filled with (semi-)functional alcoholics, that probably wasn't a very good long-term strategy.

So, are you saying that we should impose Prohibition on alcohol again? Because it worked so well the first time around?

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/17/2013 7:02:43 AM

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We need to ban drugs so people will stop taking them . Its always worked before and there never seems to be any side efects.

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RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/17/2013 5:20:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

There are a number of alternatives available ranging from removing all restrictions and sanctions on drug use to various models of decriminalisation and levels of regulation. Posing two extremes - blanket prohibition or doing nothing - is a false dichotomy, as well as being hopelessly simplistic.

I'm glad to see you say this, tweak, because from your first post I got the impression you thought we should go ahead and give the green light to everything without consideration. To me, that was a hopelessly simplistic answer. And believe it or not, in the case of marijuana, I tend to agree with you...with some limitations. However, when you start talking about stronger drugs like cocaine and heroin, given my experience with the drug culture, legalization is a frightening and dangerous idea.

quote:

What is abundantly clear is that the current policy of blanket prohibition has failed, and failed miserably, totally and irredeemably. It is clear that the current approach has failed everywhere it has been tried. Nor will increasing penalties work - the death penalties that are in place in a number of countries haven't succeeded in stopping the drug trade, rather these countries tend to have more severe drug problems than those countries that have adopted more realistic or nuanced policies.

While I'll accept your use of the word "blanket", the idea that any prohibition hasn't worked simply isn't true. Back in the 80's when drug gangs were slaying each other over cocaine, current policies eventually removed the vast majority of cocaine supplies from the area where I lived. Many of my friends who were already addicted to cocaine and crack found themselves without the ability to obtain it. As a result, most eventually dried out and got on with life. If they had been able to continue getting the drugs they wanted, fewer of them would have eventually done so.

quote:

Whatever alternative model is adopted, it is critical that drug use needs to be seen as a health issue, not a legal or moral one.

While I agree with your statement, this brings me to another point that I'll ask you to consider. Whether you are willing to agree or not, legalization of some hard drugs is, without doubt, going to create some addicts simply because of the ease of obtaining the drugs. I'm not intending to point my finger directly at you but for those who support both national healthcare and the legalization of drugs it might be a good idea to take a moment to consider that they are supporting the right for someone to risk becoming an addict while demanding that taxpayers risk becoming responsible for paying for their treatment.

I think most taxpayers will find that unacceptable.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to tweakabelle)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/17/2013 5:57:05 PM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: WebWanderer

$5 says he's going to mysteriously walk through the locked door and past several armed guards, who will suddenly come into money in the near future. Completely unrelated, of course.

Big deal, another crime boss gets busted or killed. But with the black market the continuing political/economic status quo...there will always be another.

As for escaping, you may be correct. All he has to do is get past the guards seeing-eye dogs and they can be drugged.

Why bother escaping? He could probably just relocate the main office into the prison and double his staff of guards for free. They're probably already installing his high-speed internet connection into the cell as we speak.

Ahhh, in my neck of the woods they called that going the Full Escobar.
It's a nice solution.

_____________________________

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(in reply to MasterCaneman)

RE: Leader of Zetas drug cartel is captured - 7/17/2013 7:52:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
...I don't think it's a proper role of government to protect people from themselves.

Neither do I.

quote:

Think of what you're saying here, especially in the context of all the violence taking place and the particularly gruesome aspects of it. Beheadings, massacres, torture, dismemberment of innocent people - all because some old ladies in government think they want to save addicts who are hellbent on killing themselves anyway.

I agree that what's been happening in Mexico is horrible and I realize your real concern is stopping the violence. But what's happening there, in my opinion, has gone well beyond the notion that it's all because some Americans want what the cartels are offering. It's become a power struggle between the government and a bunch of violent killers addicted to money and power. That isn't solely our responsibility no matter what the impetus for it was. We have not been their only customers.

But think about what you're saying as well. From what it sounds like, you're arguing against the people that want to save addicts hellbent on killing themselves yet you expect us to do the same by accepting and treating addicts who are often just as hellbent on staying high. Is it really any different? Addiction is addiction and that is where the real problem lies.

Or am I misunderstanding your comment?

quote:

quote:

IMO, this is probably the worst logical argument for the legalization of drugs.

How so? I think it's a perfectly valid and practical argument. It's not the only argument I would make, but I can't see anything wrong with it. Perhaps you can enlighten as to what the problem is with it.

Because it's the same kind of argument a drug dealer makes to justify his business, "The money was just too good". The premise ignores all the possible negative effects of drug use for the sake of profit. And while I'll admit that it may only be a moral or ethical argument on my part, I've already witnessed enough damage from drug abuse and capitalist zealotry to question the legitimacy of such a proposal. That's why I started that comment with IMO (In My Opinion).

quote:

quote:

quote:

It could be a win-win for all.

Anyone who really thinks this is completely naive.

Again, I'm looking at the results of what we're doing already. It's not working. The excessive violence in Mexico is proof positive of this, so the status quo should not be continued.

The excessive violence in Mexico is only proof that there are a bunch of violent killers in Mexico. I doubt it would matter much if their money came from people buying drugs or Cuban cigars.

(Added later as an edit)
BTW...what do you think the probability is that even one of those violent killers is acting so because he's using the drugs he obviously has easy access to?

quote:

To think that continuing with drug prohibition will lead to anything good for society is, in my opinion, far more naive than what you're saying here. The whole idea has been terribly naive from the very start, and innocent people are being killed because of this naivete.

I respect your opinion, Zonie, but if you think I'm really being that naive then why don't you go find out what it's like to be addicted to something like cocaine, meth, or heroin, make the struggle back to sobriety, then come tell us what you think about it. And if you've already gone through that kind of situation then I applaud your tenacity and strength of will. But if you think it's better to legalize addictive drugs and treat the addicts then would you support continuing prohibition of addictive drugs while pushing the development of medications that block those drugs from affecting the brain in the way they do?

< Message edited by RottenJohnny -- 7/17/2013 8:37:07 PM >

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to Zonie63)

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