RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!!

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:47:58 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

You forget a couple of very important facts.

Opinion not substantiaed by facts.

quote:

They were at very close range so the lethality of the rocks did come into play.

Opinion not substantiated by facts.

quote:

The shooting was set off (yes I know that there had been warning shots fired but the serious shots are another matter) when a person, allegedly thinking he was defusing the situation, went for the landowners gun hand.

"Went for" omfg does it say that in the op????? So that would again be opinion not substantiated by facts.

quote:

While he may have been just trying to get the muzzle away from his friend it would seem to the landowner that it was the beginning of a potentially lethal attack.

Lemme see I have a gun and someone wants to push it away from his face and now I believe that I am under attack....once again we have an opinion not substantiated by facts or any sort of logic.

quote:

Not to say he handled the situation at all correctly but at that instant he was defending himself.

He is the attacker and until the attacked person has successfully parried his attack he remains the attacker the attacker has no presumption of legal self defense...why is that so difficult to understand?

Ok you didn't forget you ignored.
If they were not at close range then everything said about them being within 30 ft of the river is bs.
He tried to knock the gun away from pointing at his friend that is going for, knock it away from point or trying to take it would look the same to the landowner.
In his mind he was defending himself.
If I didn't think he was in the wrong, based on what we know at the moment, I wouldn't have said manslaughter seemed appropriate.
There was no lack of understanding on my part, everything you have said is the essence of simplicity.
I was, however giving you exactly what I believe was going on in the shooters head.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to thompsonx)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:55:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In his mind he was defending himself.

You know this?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:57:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In his mind he was defending himself.

You know this?

The way its gonna read in court, obviously.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 8:00:42 AM

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Joined: 9/3/2011
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I'm talking about in real life, not your TV fueled 'shoot the rock out of their hand' internet tough guy fantasies.

Legally, even a shot that doesn't kill someone is considered use of deadly force.

I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled shows.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

You dont understand the concept of gunshot wounds? Tupak, pre death for example.

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(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 8:07:57 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In his mind he was defending himself.

You know this?

People holding up places think they are defending themselves if the owner resists, so yes I am pretty sure of it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 8:15:50 AM

Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In his mind he was defending himself.

You know this?

People holding up places think they are defending themselves if the owner resists, so yes I am pretty sure of it.

(emphasis added)

Oh, okay. The whole float should be jailed for "holding up" the bar. Gotcha

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 8:27:51 AM

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I'm talking about in real life, not your TV fueled 'shoot the rock out of their hand' internet tough guy fantasies.

Legally, even a shot that doesn't kill someone is considered use of deadly force.

I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled shows.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

You dont understand the concept of gunshot wounds? Tupak, pre death for example.

No you weren't I quoted you in whole cloth. The fact that you have fantasies is not unknown to us. Yeah, you spout a great deal of asswipe based on shit not said on the planet that you say was said.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Powergamz1)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 9:11:43 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
In his mind he was defending himself.

You know this?

People holding up places think they are defending themselves if the owner resists, so yes I am pretty sure of it.

(emphasis added)

Oh, okay. The whole float should be jailed for "holding up" the bar. Gotcha

Not even remotely what I said, and you are too smart to think it was, I was addressing mindset and you know it.
Even if you were going to apply my analogy that directly it is the landowner who would be the holdup man, so your response blew it on many levels.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/24/2013 9:22:34 AM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Yachtie)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 9:59:50 AM

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~FR~

The federal test of navigability is not a technical test. There are no measurements of river width, depth, flow, or steepness involved. The test is simply whether the river is usable as a route by the public, even in small craft such as canoes, kayaks, and rafts. Such a river is legally navigable even if it contains big rapids, waterfalls, and other obstructions at which boaters get out, walk around, then re-enter the water.
The states own these rivers up to the "ordinary high water mark." This is the mark that people can actually see on the ground, where the high water has left debris, sand, and gravel during its ordinary annual cycle. (Not during unusual flooding.) It is not a theoretical line requiring engineering calculations. Where the river banks are fairly flat, this mark can be quite a distance from the edge of the water during medium water flows. There is often plenty of room for standing, fishing, camping, and other visits.
States cannot sell or give away these rivers and lands up to the ordinary high water mark. Under the "Public Trust Doctrine," they must hold them in perpetuity for public use.

http://www.nationalrivers.org/states/mo-law.htm

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 11:12:21 AM

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Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thatsub

As I understand the situation, we have several agitated people, one is armed with a gun the rest with rocks.

One guy was holding a rock. Another guy, totally unarmed, was standing in front of him to block him both from throwing the rock and from getting shot.

(in reply to thatsub)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 5:59:51 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: thatsub

As I understand the situation, we have several agitated people, one is armed with a gun the rest with rocks.

One guy was holding a rock. Another guy, totally unarmed, was standing in front of him to block him both from throwing the rock and from getting shot.

The narrative comes from the widow, hardly an unbiased source.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to graceadieu)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 6:36:48 PM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: thatsub

As I understand the situation, we have several agitated people, one is armed with a gun the rest with rocks.

One guy was holding a rock. Another guy, totally unarmed, was standing in front of him to block him both from throwing the rock and from getting shot.

The narrative comes from the widow, hardly an unbiased source.

In your mind the guy with the gun is never in the wrong and that is scary.

This is a case of a nutjob killing someone because someone else took a piss. There is nothing to defend especially after he fired a round at the man's feet. At that point it is clearly the right of the people being shot at to defend themselves by any means necessary.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 7/24/2013 6:37:26 PM >

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 6:43:11 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

quote:

ORIGINAL: thatsub

As I understand the situation, we have several agitated people, one is armed with a gun the rest with rocks.

One guy was holding a rock. Another guy, totally unarmed, was standing in front of him to block him both from throwing the rock and from getting shot.

The narrative comes from the widow, hardly an unbiased source.

In your mind the guy with the gun is never in the wrong and that is scary.

This is a case of a nutjob killing someone because someone else took a piss. There is nothing to defend especially after he fired a round at the man's feet. At that point it is clearly the right of the people being shot at to defend themselves by any means necessary.

I have still not said I think he was right.
I was merely pointing out that the widows view may not be exactly objective.
As I said on page one lets wait till we get the whole story.
How do you assess "put down the gun and we will see who has the power".
You want to hang anyone with a gun, that is scary.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 7/24/2013 6:46:47 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:02:08 PM

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How do you assess "put down the gun and we will see who has the power".

Said after he shot at a guy and said "I have the power here. I have the power." How do you expect people to respond to craziness like that?

quote:

You want to hang anyone with a gun, that is scary.

Nope just crazy assholes who carry a gun to feel macho and then use it at the first opportunity.

Although I do worry about the segment of our population that lives in such fear that they think they need a gun just to walk around their own property or drive to a Target.

And shouldn't you be defending the floaters who clearly were the ones with the right to stand their ground. They were in a public place when an armed man threatened them. Surely if they had shot him as soon as he fired a shot into the ground you would say they should not even be arrested or if the guy with the rock beat him to death after he fired that first two shots that would be perfectly legal as well.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:19:42 PM

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Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/24/responsible-gun-owner-opens-fire-on-car-full-of-kids-because-dad-tried-to-turn-around-in-her-driveway/#ixzz2a1HJcpRF

You know how sometimes you get lost and you just don’t have anywhere to turn around except by using someone’s driveway? Well, don’t ever let that happen to you in the backwoods of Tennessee.

Oscar Scott and his family of seven decided to go out for a nice Sunday visit to Bays Mountain Park in northeastern Tennessee. When it was time to go home, they thought it’d be nice to take the scenic route. After enjoying some scenery, they came across Bays Mountain Road and took it, curious to see if it would take them back to the park. After going a ways down the road, they noticed that the road became very narrow and turned in to what Scott described as “an old log road.” Figuring it was best to turn around, he put the car in reverse, and chaos ensued.

Margie Rhea Ramey saw the car go into reverse from her front porch, where she’d been sitting with a few other people. Sick of people who were “tearing up her driveway,” Margie started yelling. Before they even touched her driveway, Scott’s son asked “Does she got a gun?” and Margie opened fire on the SUV carrying five children, ages four to twelve. She fired two shots, one hitting close to where the children were seated in the car. Scott’s wife yelled to her that they were simply turning around, but ol’ Margie wasn’t having it. Scott put pedal to the metal and got them out of there as fast as he could and called the police.

Ramey was arrested and released on a $1,000 bond Sunday night. She is charged with seven counts of reckless endangerment.

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(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:40:09 PM

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

I have still not said I think he was right.
I was merely pointing out that the widows view may not be exactly objective.
As I said on page one lets wait till we get the whole story.
How do you assess "put down the gun and we will see who has the power".
You want to hang anyone with a gun, that is scary.

From what I have read, they both agreed the man shot didnt have a rock, so the only dispute is if the other man had a rock in both hands?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:44:50 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
How do you assess "put down the gun and we will see who has the power".

Said after he shot at a guy and said "I have the power here. I have the power." How do you expect people to respond to craziness like that?

quote:

You want to hang anyone with a gun, that is scary.

Nope just crazy assholes who carry a gun to feel macho and then use it at the first opportunity.

Although I do worry about the segment of our population that lives in such fear that they think they need a gun just to walk around their own property or drive to a Target.

And shouldn't you be defending the floaters who clearly were the ones with the right to stand their ground. They were in a public place when an armed man threatened them. Surely if they had shot him as soon as he fired a shot into the ground you would say they should not even be arrested or if the guy with the rock beat him to death after he fired that first two shots that would be perfectly legal as well.

Not according to the story, during the shouting part he said, according to the widow, I have the power twice, and they said put down the gun and we will see who has the power. Only a moron wouldn't take that as a threat.
Then one guy picked up rocks and another moved on him assumed, again by the widow, to stop the trouble.
The last murder here took place on a Walmart parking lot so carrying to Target may not be such a bad idea.
You have to be a nutcase to carry on your own property? get real.
Did you read enough of the story to know that drunken parties along that river had deprived the property owners of the ability to use their own river front?
Have you seen any story yet which gives his side of what happened?
You also have not been paying attention. I have been saying lets get more information before we lock into positions.
Get the facts then decide. We have only one view of what happened lets get more.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:47:40 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Read more: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/24/responsible-gun-owner-opens-fire-on-car-full-of-kids-because-dad-tried-to-turn-around-in-her-driveway/#ixzz2a1HJcpRF

You know how sometimes you get lost and you just don’t have anywhere to turn around except by using someone’s driveway? Well, don’t ever let that happen to you in the backwoods of Tennessee.

Oscar Scott and his family of seven decided to go out for a nice Sunday visit to Bays Mountain Park in northeastern Tennessee. When it was time to go home, they thought it’d be nice to take the scenic route. After enjoying some scenery, they came across Bays Mountain Road and took it, curious to see if it would take them back to the park. After going a ways down the road, they noticed that the road became very narrow and turned in to what Scott described as “an old log road.” Figuring it was best to turn around, he put the car in reverse, and chaos ensued.

Margie Rhea Ramey saw the car go into reverse from her front porch, where she’d been sitting with a few other people. Sick of people who were “tearing up her driveway,” Margie started yelling. Before they even touched her driveway, Scott’s son asked “Does she got a gun?” and Margie opened fire on the SUV carrying five children, ages four to twelve. She fired two shots, one hitting close to where the children were seated in the car. Scott’s wife yelled to her that they were simply turning around, but ol’ Margie wasn’t having it. Scott put pedal to the metal and got them out of there as fast as he could and called the police.

Ramey was arrested and released on a $1,000 bond Sunday night. She is charged with seven counts of reckless endangerment.

The title of the article alone proves extreme bias on the part of the writer. No rational person would call this a responsible gun owner unless they are trying to paint all gun owners with the same brush.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:49:39 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I have still not said I think he was right.
I was merely pointing out that the widows view may not be exactly objective.
As I said on page one lets wait till we get the whole story.
How do you assess "put down the gun and we will see who has the power".
You want to hang anyone with a gun, that is scary.

From what I have read, they both agreed the man shot didnt have a rock, so the only dispute is if the other man had a rock in both hands?

No the dead man stepped between them and Crocker shot the closest one. It is right there in the story.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/24/2013 7:56:16 PM

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

No the dead man stepped between them and Crocker shot the closest one. It is right there in the story.

Exactly... the dead man wasnt holding rocks.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to BamaD)

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