RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!!

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:17:45 AM

kdsub

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You mean like you did in the Zimmerman thread...over and over and over?

Butch

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RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:25:23 AM

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There is not one single post from me in any Zimmerman thread claiming to *know* what was in someone's mind. I very carefully framed all speculation as exactly that, and all discussions about the legal tests for self defense, as exactly that. I made sure to say '*If* thing XYZ occurred, or *If* XYZ person reasonably believed something.

If you are talking about calling people on their racist cut and paste jobs from StormFront, I even qualified my calling people out for those by saying I didn't know if they were spouting racist memes because they thought it was funny, or if they were actually racist.

But thanks for making up more stuff that isn't true.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You mean like you did in the Zimmerman thread...over and over and over?

Butch

_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to kdsub)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 10:29:13 AM

kdsub

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Come on... don't be silly...You made assumption after assumption... all any of us can do is discuss an incident such as this with the information we have realizing we may not have it all... Of course we will have to wait until a trial if even then we get the full story... Until then it is speculation no matter what conclusions we have. I realize this and assumed it was a given that all of us are just speculating.

So you can step down off that high horse and join the rest of us gossipers.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 7/25/2013 10:34:52 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Powergamz1)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 11:30:38 AM

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How do you know the intention of the person who has a rock or whatever or tries to take your gun from you? Here in Pa, trespassers do not give you a nice, easy to read, double spaced typewritten report of what they are going to do. If someone has a gun on you, a SANE person would back away and go away.

The mere fact that a person, not on his own property, with no weapon, tries to disarm a man with a gun is POOF POSITIVE that he has piss poor judgement and would be VERY dangerous with a gun if he was able to get it.

I had a gun pulled on me and the last thing I thought about was playing John Wayne and try to get his gun! I did what he said and got the fuck off his property!

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 11:51:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

How do you know the intention of the person who has a rock or whatever or tries to take your gun from you? Here in Pa, trespassers do not give you a nice, easy to read, double spaced typewritten report of what they are going to do. If someone has a gun on you, a SANE person would back away and go away.

The mere fact that a person, not on his own property, with no weapon, tries to disarm a man with a gun is POOF POSITIVE that he has piss poor judgement and would be VERY dangerous with a gun if he was able to get it.

I had a gun pulled on me and the last thing I thought about was playing John Wayne and try to get his gun! I did what he said and got the fuck off his property!

The group was on a public easement. He had no property rights and he should have known it. He had every right to tell the one guy not to piss on his property outside the easement. When he went and got a gun and came onto the public easement and shot at the group their SYG rights were activated. they had no duty to retreat and were allowed to use deadly force, including bashing the dumbass' head in with a rock, to defend themselves.

Kind of odd how the right wingers who so staunchly defended Zimmerman's right to self defense are now denying that right to this group of peaceful unarmed rafters. Might both cases be all about who had the gun?

(in reply to papassion)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 12:07:50 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

How do you know the intention of the person who has a rock or whatever or tries to take your gun from you? Here in Pa, trespassers do not give you a nice, easy to read, double spaced typewritten report of what they are going to do. If someone has a gun on you, a SANE person would back away and go away.

The mere fact that a person, not on his own property, with no weapon, tries to disarm a man with a gun is POOF POSITIVE that he has piss poor judgement and would be VERY dangerous with a gun if he was able to get it.

I had a gun pulled on me and the last thing I thought about was playing John Wayne and try to get his gun! I did what he said and got the fuck off his property!

The group was on a public easement. He had no property rights and he should have known it. He had every right to tell the one guy not to piss on his property outside the easement. When he went and got a gun and came onto the public easement and shot at the group their SYG rights were activated. they had no duty to retreat and were allowed to use deadly force, including bashing the dumbass' head in with a rock, to defend themselves.

Kind of odd how the right wingers who so staunchly defended Zimmerman's right to self defense are now denying that right to this group of peaceful unarmed rafters. Might both cases be all about who had the gun?

If the landowner lived there and he didn't know about waterways easements, and thought it WAS his PROPERTY, how the hell did some strangers know all about easements? Or was it some "macho" thing among the boaters that escalated. "Goddam old farmer can't tell ME what to do!"

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 12:12:08 PM

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quote:

If the landowner lived there and he didn't know about waterways easements, and thought it WAS his PROPERTY, how the hell did some strangers know all about easements? Or was it some "macho" thing among the boaters that escalated. "Goddam old farmer can't tell ME what to do!"

Stranger's who had been boating there for years and years. Hell, I dont live there and I know that gravel bar is public property. Why didnt the property owner?

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(in reply to papassion)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 12:46:02 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

If the landowner lived there and he didn't know about waterways easements, and thought it WAS his PROPERTY, how the hell did some strangers know all about easements? Or was it some "macho" thing among the boaters that escalated. "Goddam old farmer can't tell ME what to do!"

Stranger's who had been boating there for years and years. Hell, I dont live there and I know that gravel bar is public property. Why didnt the property owner?

It's not public property, it's a public easement.
I'm thinking there are 3 stories here
His story
their story
the true story.

As for those who wonder why anyone would approach a man with a gun, remember, alcohol was involved.

_____________________________

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 12:59:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

How do you know the intention of the person who has a rock or whatever or tries to take your gun from you? Here in Pa, trespassers do not give you a nice, easy to read, double spaced typewritten report of what they are going to do. If someone has a gun on you, a SANE person would back away and go away.

The mere fact that a person, not on his own property, with no weapon, tries to disarm a man with a gun is POOF POSITIVE that he has piss poor judgement and would be VERY dangerous with a gun if he was able to get it.

I had a gun pulled on me and the last thing I thought about was playing John Wayne and try to get his gun! I did what he said and got the fuck off his property!

The group was on a public easement. He had no property rights and he should have known it. He had every right to tell the one guy not to piss on his property outside the easement. When he went and got a gun and came onto the public easement and shot at the group their SYG rights were activated. they had no duty to retreat and were allowed to use deadly force, including bashing the dumbass' head in with a rock, to defend themselves.

Kind of odd how the right wingers who so staunchly defended Zimmerman's right to self defense are now denying that right to this group of peaceful unarmed rafters. Might both cases be all about who had the gun?

If the landowner lived there and he didn't know about waterways easements, and thought it WAS his PROPERTY, how the hell did some strangers know all about easements? Or was it some "macho" thing among the boaters that escalated. "Goddam old farmer can't tell ME what to do!"

Do you really think a company could operate that rents rafts to allow people to float down a river if that river was actually a series of private properties? Would you buy a property and not find out what rights you have over the river that flows through it?

And no matter if it escalated once the property owner went and got a gun and came onto the easement legally the floaters were protected by the Missouri SYG law. So why aren't the right wingers defending this group's self defense rights? Or was the Zimmerman case and this one all about supporting the asshole with a gun?

(in reply to papassion)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:00:47 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
It's not public property, it's a public easement.

That's a difference without a distinction.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:12:40 PM

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Skinner v. Osage County, 822 S.W.2d 437
(1991)

I keep seeing this case cited in reference to the gravel bars.

I couldnt shoot someone accessing the beach if they used the "public easement" from my house. Its my understanding that if they were below the water mark, its not considered "private property". He may own it, but its still not property he can drive people off from.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:15:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
It's not public property, it's a public easement.

That's a difference without a distinction.

I was correcting a small error that someone else had made.
In many states, the property line is defined as "the middle of X waterway" The person owns and pays taxes on it. He may sell it. He may use it personally and for his livestock and is entitled to 'quiet enjoyment'.
The only thing he may not do is exercise his "right of exclusion" up to the mean high water line.
Public property is not taxed, nor can anyone expect others of the bundle of property rights one gets via purchase.
There are, however, some states in the western US who have managed to circumvent the federal navigable waters act and effectively prevent passage in formerly freely navigable streams.
large landowners have a lot of pull in western state legislatures.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:16:09 PM

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He owns it he pays taxes on it, but it is ultimately held in trust by the Federal Government (you know republicans and teddy roosevelt) with additional strictures and easements and laws by the state, county and township (in Minnesota).

I know cuz I own 1643' in length of the shit, by about 200' wide, and a whole width of gravel road that runs along it. Cuz both sides of it (both the left and right half are on meandered property lines, all in my "favor".

I cant tell nobody, even those fucking kids hightailing down the curvy gravel road at 100 miles an hour all night, but I can laugh when the end up in the drink or the ditch....

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/25/2013 1:20:42 PM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:24:16 PM

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And in return you, as property owner, are not liabile for damage that happens on your land, correct?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:28:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And in return you, as property owner, are not liabile for damage that happens on your land, correct?

Nope, you still have some liability.

Waterfront property isn't as cool a thing to own as some folks think it is.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:30:07 PM

Posts: 19457
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

He owns it he pays taxes on it, but it is ultimately held in trust by the Federal Government (you know republicans and teddy roosevelt) with additional strictures and easements and laws by the state, county and township (in Minnesota).

I know cuz I own 1643' in length of the shit, by about 200' wide, and a whole width of gravel road that runs along it. Cuz both sides of it (both the left and right half are on meandered property lines, all in my "favor".

I cant tell nobody, even those fucking kids hightailing down the curvy gravel road at 100 miles an hour all night, but I can laugh when the end up in the drink or the ditch....

You have to pay property tax on public easements? How is that assessed? What is the value of a gravel road you can't keep others from using or put up a toll booth on?

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:35:30 PM

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FR

It seems to me from what's in the article, the guy with gun shouldn't have been firing warning shots, especially towards the floaters if indeed that's what happened. The shooting seems to me to have been unnecessary based on what I've gleaned from the article. However there aren't enough details provided to make a determination one way or the other. All the witnesses were in the floater group and may be biased for the victim. If I'm that land owner and I'm going down to the river armed to yell at people who are trespassing, my piece would be holstered and I wouldn't approach too close to the floaters. I certainly wouldn't pull the gun unless they started to approach me with a threatening attitude. Maybe a warning shot if there is time before they reach my personal space. In fact if it was me I would have been somewhat polite about telling the floaters they're trespassing and to leave immediately or at least tried to be polite yet firm. I can't see shooting someone over that situation and there is no comparison here to the Zimmerman case.

If I'm a floater who was confronted by a guy brandishing a handgun yelling at me to get off his property, right or wrong, I'm going to apologize and get the fuck out of there. Either way I'm not going to shoot or get shot over practically nothing.

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(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:36:36 PM

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Anyone else think the shooter needs a psych eval?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:37:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

He owns it he pays taxes on it, but it is ultimately held in trust by the Federal Government (you know republicans and teddy roosevelt) with additional strictures and easements and laws by the state, county and township (in Minnesota).

I know cuz I own 1643' in length of the shit, by about 200' wide, and a whole width of gravel road that runs along it. Cuz both sides of it (both the left and right half are on meandered property lines, all in my "favor".

I cant tell nobody, even those fucking kids hightailing down the curvy gravel road at 100 miles an hour all night, but I can laugh when the end up in the drink or the ditch....

You have to pay property tax on public easements? How is that assessed? What is the value of a gravel road you can't keep others from using or put up a toll booth on?

Fuckin Sie A. And that water is big costly, big costly. Water is accessed at lakeshore rates, and the road is on agricultural land, so taxed in with agricultural land. Beyond that, I also pay township taxes on it and all the other taxes and mills. As if it was all mine to do as I please.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/25/2013 1:39:13 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to DomKen)

RE: Stand your ground in Missouri OH NO!!! - 7/25/2013 1:41:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And in return you, as property owner, are not liabile for damage that happens on your land, correct?

What do you mean? If some fuckin stupid snowmobiler crosses from the lake, across my road and into my land and beheads himself on the barbwire fence?

Fuckin right. His family can sue me, and it is a hands down win. Happened to a rich neighbor right down the road.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to tazzygirl)

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