RE: Inappropriate touching (Full Version)

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 9:37:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Freedomdwarf: how often do strangers on the street come up to you and hug you? Because that's never happened to me. People I've met doing a peck on the cheek when greeting or leaving, certainly. But total strangers?

Once, just the once when I was entering a shopping centre.
I was supposed to be meeting them as well but I hadn't spoken to them except for a text message to meet them there.
And I saw those arms opening and I raised my palms outwards but he kept on coming.
He got within a few inches and it was obvious he wasn't backing off.
So he got a punch on the nose before we actually made contact.
He called the police.
I explained the situation - unwarranted impending physical attention, ie; percieved assault.
He was arrested and charged with aggravated assault.
I don't know the outcome as I never had any contact after that incident.
And because the police brought the charges, I wasn't privvy to the conclusion.

So, not exactly a total stranger but it was someone that I didn't know and hadn't met at all before.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 9:46:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

he said also tapping the shoulder and telling "excuse me" or being called darling among aggressive behaviour, this happens more often, I still don't see how it can justifie a sucker-punch in the face.

You really can't see it, can you??

It's unwarranted and uninvited attention of an over-friendly nature.
It really is as simple as that.

If I didn't invite it, you aren't entitled to be over-friendly with me in a way that is considered to be bordering on intimate.
If ya wanna say hello, then do so with words and a hand-shake for the first and maybe several other meets after that.
But don't presume you can get all cuddly/huggy with me or someone you don't know - that's just being presumptuous and not reading the body language.




stef -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 10:02:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

You really can't see it, can you??

He probably can't see hitting a 3" target at 400 yards with an air rifle either. Clearly, you are in a class of one.

[image]http://www.inertdomain.com/images/rolleye.gif[/image]




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 10:06:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

he said also tapping the shoulder and telling "excuse me" or being called darling among aggressive behaviour, this happens more often, I still don't see how it can justifie a sucker-punch in the face.

Although I haven't done it myself, I have been waiting at the bar to get served and seen someone get a broken glass in the face for doing just that.

After the inevitable brawl and the police came and arrested quite a few of them, guess what the excuse was??
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"I didn't like the way he looked at me"!!

And you think I'm the violent one??
Sheeesh.


And calling someone 'darling' when you aren't romantically associated with them is sexual harassment.
And I've also seen boyfriend take someone outside and beat the living shit out the one who called his girlfriend 'darling'.

As I keep reminding you, it's the nature of unwarranted and uninvited attention that allows this law to come into play whether physical contact is made or not.




eulero83 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 11:32:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

he said also tapping the shoulder and telling "excuse me" or being called darling among aggressive behaviour, this happens more often, I still don't see how it can justifie a sucker-punch in the face.

Although I haven't done it myself, I have been waiting at the bar to get served and seen someone get a broken glass in the face for doing just that.

After the inevitable brawl and the police came and arrested quite a few of them, guess what the excuse was??
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"I didn't like the way he looked at me"!!

And you think I'm the violent one??
Sheeesh.


And calling someone 'darling' when you aren't romantically associated with them is sexual harassment.
And I've also seen boyfriend take someone outside and beat the living shit out the one who called his girlfriend 'darling'.

As I keep reminding you, it's the nature of unwarranted and uninvited attention that allows this law to come into play whether physical contact is made or not.



And did they get away with that? because I've seen fist fight starting for such things but this doesn't mean they where exonerated.




MariaB -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 11:41:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Either way, someone being 'over friendly' towards someone else when that particular attention wasn't explicitely invited or sought, constitutes assault and/or harassment.

No it doesn't unless you verbally warned that person that you didn't want to hug or be kissed on the cheek.

quote:


So... someone being over-friendly towards me when an extended hand for a hand-shake would more than suffice, is certainly bordering on harassment and I perceive that as a prelude to provocation and possible physical assault. To a non-huggy person, receiving that unwarranted physical contact is definitely an assault as I didn't invite you to do so.

You should keep in mind that you live in one of the most multi cultural countries on the planet and that of course will be taken into consideration if you insisted on a person being charged with assaulting you.

quote:


Part of that law is the perception of impending assault that empowers the recipient (me) to use whatever force I deem necessary to prevent that physical assault from actually happening.


You only have a case if the kiss on the cheek or shoulder hug was proven to be provocation towards you or to deliberately cause you discomfort. This would include you verbally or clearly warning someone that you didn't want to be touched and the person chose to ignore the warning. Other than that, it would be seen as nothing more than a friendly gesture and your reaction would likely be seen as phobic. The thing is, you can't go round punching people because you are phobic, especially if the person you assault hasn't been forewarned about your phobia

quote:


So, I am legally allowed to punch you in the face, or knee you in the groin, or any other physical violence/force that I feel is necessary to prevent you from that act of physical assault you are about to inflict upon me, uninvited.


No you are not and you will likely end up on a charge if you did so, especially if there are witnesses.






eulero83 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 11:42:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

he said also tapping the shoulder and telling "excuse me" or being called darling among aggressive behaviour, this happens more often, I still don't see how it can justifie a sucker-punch in the face.

You really can't see it, can you??

It's unwarranted and uninvited attention of an over-friendly nature.
It really is as simple as that.

If I didn't invite it, you aren't entitled to be over-friendly with me in a way that is considered to be bordering on intimate.
If ya wanna say hello, then do so with words and a hand-shake for the first and maybe several other meets after that.
But don't presume you can get all cuddly/huggy with me or someone you don't know - that's just being presumptuous and not reading the body language.



belive me I will probably avoid also the handshake if I don't feel you interested in chatting with me at a meeting with common friends, as I told before I'm not huggy and into physical contact with strangers, what I say is I'm more civilized to have this violent reactions.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 4:34:02 PM)

Seems it is definitely a battery by law in much of the US as well:

quote:



Source

"Assault: In order to be found guilty of an assault, a defendant must have intended for the assault to occur. This means that the defendant intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact, and the act was not accidental. The intent to commit an assault may transfer to different victims- for example, if the defendant intended to scare one person but ended up scaring a different bystander, intent for an assault would be satisfied.

Battery: Battery requires a definite intent on the part of the defendant as well. In this case the defendant must have intended to make the harmful or offensive contact. An indirect application of force would also constitute a battery. The intent to commit a battery can also transfer to different victims as in an assault. Also, the intent can transfer if the defendant intended to cause one type of injury but instead causes a different injury."

" For example, hugging a friend might not be offensive, especially if such activity has been a common practice between the two people. However, hugging a complete stranger would likely constitute a battery because it would be offensive to the stranger. Thus, batteries involving "offensive contact" can be somewhat subjective and are handled according to what a reasonable person would consider offensive. "


A key portion is what a reasonable person would consider offensive, so I would likely ask for a jury trial. Very doubtful that a criminal prosecutor would even take such a case.




littlewonder -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 7:57:56 PM)

quote:

That aside, my particular aversion came about because my stepdaughter is definitely a huggy person and comes over to give me a hug when I'm trying to type or use the mouse or otherwise busy. It's bloody infuriating!
It's not easy to type or pour a cuppa when someone clamps their arms around you and pecks you on the cheek.
She's not content with just a hello and hug when she comes in - it's every 5-10 minutes!! Grrrrr!
She does it with everyone and I have to keep reminding her that not everyone likes it or wants it.


Maybe it's just me but I find that sad. [:(]

I wish my daughter would have come up to me just to give me hugs and kisses even when I was typing or pouring a cup of coffee or whatever. I would have stopped what I was doing and given her some great big hugs and kisses and told her how much I loved her and made sure she got that kind of attention that she was craving. Unfortunately though she's not the huggy/kissy type with me. [&o]

I kinda like it when Master comes up behind me while I'm pouring tea or making breakfast and gives me a great big hug. It feels good and makes me laugh and then I get to tease him and tell him if he isn't careful one of us is gonna get scalded. [:D]




littlewonder -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 8:05:24 PM)

All this talk of British assault for wanting to give someone a hug makes me never, ever, not a day on your life, want to visit Britain.

This may be my deciding factor. Oh and freedomdwarf, if you're ever in Washington, DC or Baltimore, please make me aware of where you are so I don't invade your space. I'd hate to be in a crowd near you and get punched for accidentally brushing your shoulder.




Gauge -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/9/2013 8:38:28 PM)

If you punch someone in the face for hugging you, the person getting charged in the USA is the person who was violent. You would have to show intent to harm meaning a direct threat to your physical well being before you could even stand a bit of a chance at self-defense.

What a bizarre reaction. It is quite over the top to think you are well within your rights to commit an act of violence if someone invades your space.

I am at a total loss of words.




MariaB -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 12:41:34 AM)

The law is the same in the America as it is in the UK




SerWhiteTiger -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 1:03:59 AM)

British people are so violent.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 5:12:56 AM)

Possibly but may not be administered the same. I did some research and all the "hugging" cases that seemed to have made it to court in the US, were not just a simple hug. They were either "Bear" hugs, violation of another order, or were part of a sexual harassment case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

The law is the same in the America as it is in the UK




PeonForHer -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 5:58:51 AM)

FR

There's a 30 mph speed limit law here in the UK that people routinely break while the police do nothing. They're not going to do anything about hugging and kissing, either. I have some female friends who like me to hug and kiss them and some who don't. Some brilliantly obvious body language explained to me how to distinguish the non-kissers from the kissers. *That*s how it generally works here in the UK, in my experience, and I'd take a guess that it works the same elsewhere.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 6:32:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

he said also tapping the shoulder and telling "excuse me" or being called darling among aggressive behaviour, this happens more often, I still don't see how it can justifie a sucker-punch in the face.

Although I haven't done it myself, I have been waiting at the bar to get served and seen someone get a broken glass in the face for doing just that.

After the inevitable brawl and the police came and arrested quite a few of them, guess what the excuse was??
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
"I didn't like the way he looked at me"!!

And you think I'm the violent one??
Sheeesh.


And calling someone 'darling' when you aren't romantically associated with them is sexual harassment.
And I've also seen boyfriend take someone outside and beat the living shit out the one who called his girlfriend 'darling'.

As I keep reminding you, it's the nature of unwarranted and uninvited attention that allows this law to come into play whether physical contact is made or not.



And did they get away with that? because I've seen fist fight starting for such things but this doesn't mean they where exonerated.


As far as I know he did. He was back in the pub the following night.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 6:56:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Either way, someone being 'over friendly' towards someone else when that particular attention wasn't explicitely invited or sought, constitutes assault and/or harassment.

No it doesn't unless you verbally warned that person that you didn't want to hug or be kissed on the cheek.

No, you don't have to warn them.
People in any country should be aware of that countries' laws and customs.

Do you think you can go topless on a beach in an islamic country?
No. Because you would be arrested and almost certainly jailed or even face a death penalty.
And regardless if you did it at home you are expected to know the laws of the country you are in. Period.

The law is the law. Simple as that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:


So... someone being over-friendly towards me when an extended hand for a hand-shake would more than suffice, is certainly bordering on harassment and I perceive that as a prelude to provocation and possible physical assault. To a non-huggy person, receiving that unwarranted physical contact is definitely an assault as I didn't invite you to do so.

You should keep in mind that you live in one of the most multi cultural countries on the planet and that of course will be taken into consideration if you insisted on a person being charged with assaulting you.

The law makes no allowances or consideration for race or culture.

It is culturally, religiously and ethically correct for muslims to want and expect honour killings.
But we don't allow that here and the authorities will actively prosecute perpetraitors of such crimes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:


Part of that law is the perception of impending assault that empowers the recipient (me) to use whatever force I deem necessary to prevent that physical assault from actually happening.


You only have a case if the kiss on the cheek or shoulder hug was proven to be provocation towards you or to deliberately cause you discomfort. This would include you verbally or clearly warning someone that you didn't want to be touched and the person chose to ignore the warning. Other than that, it would be seen as nothing more than a friendly gesture and your reaction would likely be seen as phobic. The thing is, you can't go round punching people because you are phobic, especially if the person you assault hasn't been forewarned about your phobia

See above. You don't have to warn others that you have the legal right to act within the law.
If you genuinely had a phobia that would provoke an unexpected behavioural response (eg, fear of spiders etc), that would be different.
It has nothing to do with phobia (and I don't have one).

You cannot approach someone with a view to uninvited touching or semi-intimate behaviour and assume you won't be repulsed, physically. If your body language suggests that you do not want such intimate contact, the onus is on the aggressor not to make such an approach.
Yes, you can go round punching people for inappropriate touching because that is what it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
quote:


So, I am legally allowed to punch you in the face, or knee you in the groin, or any other physical violence/force that I feel is necessary to prevent you from that act of physical assault you are about to inflict upon me, uninvited.


No you are not and you will likely end up on a charge if you did so, especially if there are witnesses.

I have used this law quite sucessfully, with witnesses against me saying I threw the first punch (which I openly admitted to), so it does work in exactly the way I described it.

Multicultural or not, unwarranted or univited touching is assault. 




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:10:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

If you punch someone in the face for hugging you, the person getting charged in the USA is the person who was violent. You would have to show intent to harm meaning a direct threat to your physical well being before you could even stand a bit of a chance at self-defense.

What a bizarre reaction. It is quite over the top to think you are well within your rights to commit an act of violence if someone invades your space.

I am at a total loss of words.

Read my earlier post.
It's not about invading my space as such but the perception of that impending assault (ie, the hug, the physical contact) especially if my body language suggests that you shouldn't do that.

If I greeted you with open arms (which I do most times), that would be different.
But if you approached me with open arms and I'm shrinking away with palms facing outwards towards you, that should give you a pretty good clue.

It's a bit like when a dog warns you with a growl and you still go to stroke them, don't be surprised if you get bitten.
It's not the dog's fault you get bitten - you were warned and ignored it.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:14:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Seems it is definitely a battery by law in much of the US as well:

quote:



Source

"Assault: In order to be found guilty of an assault, a defendant must have intended for the assault to occur. This means that the defendant intended to cause an apprehension of harmful or offensive contact, and the act was not accidental. The intent to commit an assault may transfer to different victims- for example, if the defendant intended to scare one person but ended up scaring a different bystander, intent for an assault would be satisfied.

Battery: Battery requires a definite intent on the part of the defendant as well. In this case the defendant must have intended to make the harmful or offensive contact. An indirect application of force would also constitute a battery. The intent to commit a battery can also transfer to different victims as in an assault. Also, the intent can transfer if the defendant intended to cause one type of injury but instead causes a different injury."

" For example, hugging a friend might not be offensive, especially if such activity has been a common practice between the two people. However, hugging a complete stranger would likely constitute a battery because it would be offensive to the stranger. Thus, batteries involving "offensive contact" can be somewhat subjective and are handled according to what a reasonable person would consider offensive. "


A key portion is what a reasonable person would consider offensive, so I would likely ask for a jury trial. Very doubtful that a criminal prosecutor would even take such a case.

Here in the UK, it wouldn't be a Crown Court case so you almost certainly couldn't elect trial by jury.
And our law doesn't differentiate between what a reasonable person would consider offensive.
It's actually very specific.
And the charge wouldn't be battery - it would be assault.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:18:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

The law is the same in the America as it is in the UK

Actually, it isn't.

In the US, the emphasis is quite different.

In the US, you'd have to show intent on harm and it would be a defense plea.
In the UK, I only have to show a perceived assault (not necessarily actual harm) and can use that as a prosecution.




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