RE: Inappropriate touching

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:19:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf Possibly but may not be administered the same. I did some research and all the "hugging" cases that seemed to have made it to court in the US, were not just a simple hug. They were either "Bear" hugs, violation of another order, or were part of a sexual harassment case. quote: ORIGINAL: MariaB The law is the same in the America as it is in the UK The law and emphasis are quite different between the US and the UK on this.

theshytype -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:23:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 It's a bit like when a dog warns you with a growl and you still go to stroke them, don't be surprised if you get bitten. It's not the dog's fault you get bitten - you were warned and ignored it. And the dog is likely to be euthanized due to its "extreme" reaction. I'm not a big fan of hugging and if a stranger were to do it, or attempt to, I'd be angry. Normally, I wouldn't say I'd react in a physical way but depending on the circumstance, I may. For all I know, that person does intend on hurting me. I've never been faced with that situation, so I can't state definitively either way.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:23:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer FR There's a 30 mph speed limit law here in the UK that people routinely break while the police do nothing. They're not going to do anything about hugging and kissing, either. I have some female friends who like me to hug and kiss them and some who don't. Some brilliantly obvious body language explained to me how to distinguish the non-kissers from the kissers. Thats how it generally works here in the UK, in my experience, and I'd take a guess that it works the same elsewhere. Yep. Spot-on Peon. So if I make it pretty obvious that I don't want a hug and you still come at me with open arms?? You can expect a bunch of fives on the nose instead of a peck on the cheek! [:D] This is what people on here are not comprehending. I make it obvious I don't want a hug and they still insist. It's not just someone invading my space or approaching me.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:27:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: theshytype quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 It's a bit like when a dog warns you with a growl and you still go to stroke them, don't be surprised if you get bitten. It's not the dog's fault you get bitten - you were warned and ignored it. And the dog is likely to be euthanized due to its "extreme" reaction. I'm not a big fan of hugging and if a stranger were to do it, or attempt to, I'd be angry. Normally, I wouldn't say I'd react in a physical way but depending on the circumstance, I may. For all I know, that person does intend on hurting me. I've never been faced with that situation, so I can't state definitively either way. The dog wouldn't be put down over here unless you can show it reacted that way without provocation. If the dog warned you and you ignored it, the dog would be fine.

eulero83 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:50:32 AM)
the dog is an animal and can't understand the human laws and customs so must be kept on a leash by the owner, that's responsible for it, when in public places, if the dog is aggressive is the owner due to submit it so that in no case will hurt a person, period, so now I have a question question: who is responsible of freedomwarf1's leash? If when talking would solve the matter and you react with violence just because you can or think you can, doesn't make you cool, or more a man, and is nothing to brag about outside your circle of friends, you probably won't agree and think I'm weak it's fine outside this forum I would not even talk to you if not forced by professional reasons and we both will live our life happly.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 7:57:53 AM)
awwwwwwwwwwwww, I want to hug freedomdwarf. Ok Freedom, Im taking a step forward, now my arms are out, another step forward, just a little bit closer, okay here it comes.................[sm=duel.gif][sm=fight.gif][sm=axe.gif] Can someone float me a loan IM either going to have to post bail or pay my insurance deductible.[:D]

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 8:04:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 the dog is an animal and can't understand the human laws and customs so must be kept on a leash by the owner, that's responsible for it, when in public places, if the dog is aggressive is the owner due to submit it so that in no case will hurt a person, period, so now I have a question question: who is responsible of freedomwarf1's leash? If when talking would solve the matter and you react with violence just because you can or think you can, doesn't make you cool, or more a man, and is nothing to brag about outside your circle of friends, you probably won't agree and think I'm weak it's fine outside this forum I would not even talk to you if not forced by professional reasons and we both will live our life happly. I react with violence because some people are completely ignorant of body language and just assume that everyone is just like them and behave and do what they do. Even though a dog doesn't know our ways or laws, it does know it's own. And if a so-called intelligent(?) human cannot understand that when a dog growls at you when you approach it, it means it doesn't want the attention you are about to bestow upon it. Ergo, you are very likely to get bitten. And you think it's the dog or the owners fault for that stupid idiotic behaviour?? Sheeesh!!

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 8:06:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 awwwwwwwwwwwww, I want to hug freedomdwarf. Ok Freedom, Im taking a step forward, now my arms are out, another step forward, just a little bit closer, okay here it comes.................[sm=duel.gif][sm=fight.gif][sm=axe.gif] Can someone float me a loan IM either going to have to post bail or pay my insurance deductible.[:D] But would you still be approaching me with open arms if I was shrinking away from you with palms facing you? That's pretty obvious I'm telling you I don't want that. ETA: I don't usually do that. lol. But I have done in the past and bopped someone on the nose for it and sucessfully prosecuted them.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 8:13:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 awwwwwwwwwwwww, I want to hug freedomdwarf. Ok Freedom, Im taking a step forward, now my arms are out, another step forward, just a little bit closer, okay here it comes.................[sm=duel.gif][sm=fight.gif][sm=axe.gif] Can someone float me a loan IM either going to have to post bail or pay my insurance deductible.[:D] But would you still be approaching me with open arms if I was shrinking away from you with palms facing you? That's pretty obvious I'm telling you I don't want that. ETA: I don't usually do that. lol. But I have done in the past and bopped someone on the nose for it and sucessfully prosecuted them. haha...I say this with great emphasis. HELL NO......I can take cues pretty well. I don't have a death wish. I like it to kid[:D]

eulero83 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 8:19:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 the dog is an animal and can't understand the human laws and customs so must be kept on a leash by the owner, that's responsible for it, when in public places, if the dog is aggressive is the owner due to submit it so that in no case will hurt a person, period, so now I have a question question: who is responsible of freedomwarf1's leash? If when talking would solve the matter and you react with violence just because you can or think you can, doesn't make you cool, or more a man, and is nothing to brag about outside your circle of friends, you probably won't agree and think I'm weak it's fine outside this forum I would not even talk to you if not forced by professional reasons and we both will live our life happly. I react with violence because some people are completely ignorant of body language and just assume that everyone is just like them and behave and do what they do. Even though a dog doesn't know our ways or laws, it does know it's own. And if a so-called intelligent(?) human cannot understand that when a dog growls at you when you approach it, it means it doesn't want the attention you are about to bestow upon it. Ergo, you are very likely to get bitten. And you think it's the dog or the owners fault for that stupid idiotic behaviour?? Sheeesh!! Body language is not thaught in schools, so if you are not mute you can talk when you see someone is ignorant about it instead of educating with fists, this is a moral issue. By the way with your logic if I'm not comfortable with a dog close to me at the bus stop, the dog scares me by growling and the owner doesn't read my disconfort and let it go closer to me, without any warning, I should beat the crap out of both of them because I felt I could be attacked by the dog, and if the dog is not aggressive but just want to play and touches me? well isn't it like a hug? so again beating the crap out of it. To me it seems that all the other person are always idiots and theyr behavoiur is wrong, what you perosnally do is always fine and you are always right.

angelikaJ -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 8:28:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 the dog is an animal and can't understand the human laws and customs so must be kept on a leash by the owner, that's responsible for it, when in public places, if the dog is aggressive is the owner due to submit it so that in no case will hurt a person, period, so now I have a question question: who is responsible of freedomwarf1's leash? If when talking would solve the matter and you react with violence just because you can or think you can, doesn't make you cool, or more a man, and is nothing to brag about outside your circle of friends, you probably won't agree and think I'm weak it's fine outside this forum I would not even talk to you if not forced by professional reasons and we both will live our life happly. I react with violence because some people are completely ignorant of body language and just assume that everyone is just like them and behave and do what they do. Even though a dog doesn't know our ways or laws, it does know it's own. And if a so-called intelligent(?) human cannot understand that when a dog growls at you when you approach it, it means it doesn't want the attention you are about to bestow upon it. Ergo, you are very likely to get bitten. And you think it's the dog or the owners fault for that stupid idiotic behaviour?? Sheeesh!! Some people's brains just aren't wired for reading body language well. So, yes, I think a verbal cue before you bop someone is the more prudent thing to do. You defended it once; that does not mean you will be successful the next time.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 8:30:08 AM)
I would like to add a couple experiences. I once saw a friend I hadn't seen in a long time and hugged her like she was a giant marshmallow, and I actually hurt her, nothing major but without thinking she had just had back surgery a few months back. I also have a mildly autistic son. He is very affectionate on his terms. Touch to him if he is not fully aware before hand is not pleasure. Its like a volt of lightening and he absolutely hates it.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 8:38:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Some people's brains just aren't wired for reading body language well. So, yes, I think a verbal cue before you bop someone is the more prudent thing to do. You defended it once; that does not mean you will be successful the next time. No, I didn't defend it, I actively prosecuted the person! True, not everyone can read body language accurately. I think that's obvious by the number of date rape and other stuff that are effectively defended. But some things are pretty obvious to even the dumbest of people. But I think if I'm shrinking away from you with outward facing palms, that's bloody obvious. And if you still insist on walking towards me with open arms to hug me?? I don't think I need to shout an audible warning to you.

eulero83 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 9:05:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Some people's brains just aren't wired for reading body language well. So, yes, I think a verbal cue before you bop someone is the more prudent thing to do. You defended it once; that does not mean you will be successful the next time. No, I didn't defend it, I actively prosecuted the person! True, not everyone can read body language accurately. I think that's obvious by the number of date rape and other stuff that are effectively defended. But some things are pretty obvious to even the dumbest of people. But I think if I'm shrinking away from you with outward facing palms, that's bloody obvious. And if you still insist on walking towards me with open arms to hug me?? I don't think I need to shout an audible warning to you. you said the police took him and you didn't know anything about what happened next, have you been called as a witness to the trial? if the answer is no he's not been prosecuted and probably you had not to defend because he didn't filed a complaint as after the early shock he cooled down and thought it was not worth the time.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 9:19:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 you said the police took him and you didn't know anything about what happened next, have you been called as a witness to the trial? if the answer is no he's not been prosecuted and probably you had not to defend because he didn't filed a complaint as after the early shock he cooled down and thought it was not worth the time. Different event. Re-read my posts. For the one you are refering to, I just happened to be at the bar when it all happened. And no, I wasn't called as a witness. I think the barman did that. But I did comment that he was back in the pub the following day. So I assume he didn't get prosecuted either, even though he was the one that started the ruccus. Lots of people are refering to trials. Over here, this sort of stuff rarely goes to a Crown Court where trials are heard. Most are dealt with in the lower Magistrate's Courts where you can't have a 'trial by jury'. And given the recent shake-up in the legal system here, the option to go to trial is all but removed except for the most serious offences. The bit you quoted was my own case where I actively prosecuted someone using that law, and won, even though there were witnesses against me and I was the one that threw the first punch. ETA: Both events had a similar outcome in that the originator of the violence (myself and the guy at the bar) were deemed to be legal and justified. In my case, it was someone that ignored my blatant body language and got a broken nose. In his case, the other guy called his girlfriend 'darling' and got a broken glass in the face.

chatterbox24 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 9:24:17 AM)
I have to get my work done, everyone is to entertaining today! BUt I will leave you with this. I am no a big MR. Bill kick for some reason. I think its appropriate. SMILE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9rZgBOdY3k

eulero83 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 10:04:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Freedomdwarf: how often do strangers on the street come up to you and hug you? Because that's never happened to me. People I've met doing a peck on the cheek when greeting or leaving, certainly. But total strangers? Once, just the once when I was entering a shopping centre. I was supposed to be meeting them as well but I hadn't spoken to them except for a text message to meet them there. And I saw those arms opening and I raised my palms outwards but he kept on coming. He got within a few inches and it was obvious he wasn't backing off. So he got a punch on the nose before we actually made contact. He called the police. I explained the situation - unwarranted impending physical attention, ie; percieved assault. He was arrested and charged with aggravated assault. I don't know the outcome as I never had any contact after that incident. And because the police brought the charges, I wasn't privvy to the conclusion. So, not exactly a total stranger but it was someone that I didn't know and hadn't met at all before. I was referring to this... now you say you actually prosecuted him... and I suppose aggravated assault that's the charge you claim he would be subjected is a serious offence, but even if there is no jury but a judge (like 100% of trials in my country so I never assume a jury) you have to challenge the witnesses... I'm starting to think you tend to twist reality to confirm your point. the guy in the pub could have suspended sentence, or is there a bail system in the UK? I suppose because Richard III is credited to have invented it but in more than 500 years think can change...

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 10:34:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eulero83 quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Freedomdwarf: how often do strangers on the street come up to you and hug you? Because that's never happened to me. People I've met doing a peck on the cheek when greeting or leaving, certainly. But total strangers? Once, just the once when I was entering a shopping centre. I was supposed to be meeting them as well but I hadn't spoken to them except for a text message to meet them there. And I saw those arms opening and I raised my palms outwards but he kept on coming. He got within a few inches and it was obvious he wasn't backing off. So he got a punch on the nose before we actually made contact. He called the police. I explained the situation - unwarranted impending physical attention, ie; percieved assault. He was arrested and charged with aggravated assault. I don't know the outcome as I never had any contact after that incident. And because the police brought the charges, I wasn't privvy to the conclusion. So, not exactly a total stranger but it was someone that I didn't know and hadn't met at all before. I was referring to this... now you say you actually prosecuted him... and I suppose aggravated assault that's the charge you claim he would be subjected is a serious offence, but even if there is no jury but a judge (like 100% of trials in my country so I never assume a jury) you have to challenge the witnesses... I'm starting to think you tend to twist reality to confirm your point. the guy in the pub could have suspended sentence, or is there a bail system in the UK? I suppose because Richard III is credited to have invented it but in more than 500 years think can change... Nope. Read that post again. I said that he was arrested and charged, by the police, not by me. And if you read it - it wasn't a complete stranger as I was there to meet him. I made that very clear. I also made it very clear to him as he was approaching me that I was not wanting a hug. I also made it clear that it was he that called the police, not me. Yet he was the one arrested for aggravated assault. Maybe I am not making these various events very clear to you or you are just getting them mixed up. I have seen events that you would call violent, for something you consider and accept as 'friendly'. But those concerned did not get prosecuted for their violence because it was deemed legal and appropriate for such a response. And yes, in another event, I have prosecuted someone for just the thing you are saying I should be the one being prosecuted when in fact I used that law and it wasn't as a defense plea.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 11:08:21 AM)
It wouldn't be assault here, unless someone just held their arms out to touch you but did not make contact. It would also not be considered assault as the intent would not have been to be harmful or offensive. I think everywhere though it would be stupid to consider it criminal by a very large majority. So what about hurtful looks there? Are hurtful looks against the law? Also, here in the US you can only use self defense without criminal action if you are using it to stop something that is harmful to you. Cussing at someone is considered simple assault in most states here in the US, but if you punch them, then you have also committed at least simple battery. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Here in the UK, it wouldn't be a Crown Court case so you almost certainly couldn't elect trial by jury. And our law doesn't differentiate between what a reasonable person would consider offensive. It's actually very specific. And the charge wouldn't be battery - it would be assault.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Inappropriate touching (9/10/2013 11:24:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf It wouldn't be assault here, unless someone just held their arms out to touch you but did not make contact. It would also not be considered assault as the intent would not have been to be harmful or offensive. I think everywhere though it would be stupid to consider it criminal by a very large majority. So what about hurtful looks there? Are hurtful looks against the law? Also, here in the US you can only use self defense without criminal action if you are using it to stop something that is harmful to you. Cussing at someone is considered simple assault in most states here in the US, but if you punch them, then you have also committed at least simple battery. quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Here in the UK, it wouldn't be a Crown Court case so you almost certainly couldn't elect trial by jury. And our law doesn't differentiate between what a reasonable person would consider offensive. It's actually very specific. And the charge wouldn't be battery - it would be assault. It's interesting that we have similar laws but are applied in a very different way with different triggering criteria. Hurtful looks?? In essence, if someone gave you a very hurtful look, you could use our law to whack them one without fear of prosecution. That's because of the bit that says actual contact isn't necessary for it to be assault. But you couldn't do that in the US because the trigger for the same crime is somewhat different. Given that scenario, in the UK, the person receiving those looks would be justified in a violent response. In the US, if you responded to a look with violence, you'd be the one being prosecuted.

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