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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 5:14:13 AM

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It was alleged that he then went to his car, which was parked near the exit door, changed into protective clothing, and retrieved his guns.[5][6] About 30 minutes into the film, police say, around 12:30 am,[7] he reentered the theater through the exit door. He was dressed in black and wore a gas mask, a load-bearing vest (not to be confused with a bulletproof vest), a ballistic helmet, bullet-resistant leggings, a bullet-resistant throat protector, a groin protector and tactical gloves.[8] Initially, few in the audience considered the masked figure a threat. He appeared to be wearing a costume, like other audience members who had dressed up for the screening. Some believed that the gunman was playing a prank,[9] while others thought that he was part of a special effects installation set up for the film's premiere as a publicity stunt by the studio or theater management.[10]
wikipedia...no mention of joker...surprise...

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 5:51:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

Some patrons, at least, would have had a silouetted target at virtually point blank range. Others wouldn't have had any shot at all regardless of where they were sitting. And the rest would fall somewhere in between.

K.

This seems like a reasonable summation of the probabilities. From which it may be gleaned that the presence of an armed citizen may have made a difference providing they were sitting in the right place(s) and would have made no difference if they were sitting in some other places. In the remaining cases, the chances of an armed citizen making a difference fall in between.

There are other factors to be taken into account to - visibility, possession of an appropriate weapon, general state of chaos, firearms proficiency etc. It should be noted that some of these additional factors are completely beyond the control of the armed shooter.

Therefore the claim: "the presence of an armed citizen would have stopped the shooter' is untenable on this evidence.

However the claim: 'An armed shooter might have stopped the shooter if all of the other relevant factors were satisfied' is tenable on this evidence .

The bottom line is that no one can state with any certainty what would or wouldn't have happened. Therefore the unqualified assurances, advanced by certain pro-gun posters here, that an armed citizen would have made a difference are not, indeed cannot, be valid.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 9/15/2013 5:52:46 AM >

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:10:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

If anyone is missing the fucking point, it certainly isnt me.

Your arguments betray a preference for fantasy and dead victims over resistance. You insist against all reason that if an armed citizen had intefered even more people would have been wounded or killed, when it should be obvious that if this rampage been stopped there would have been fewer dead and wounded, even if the effort came at a cost. And just as an added detail, the upward trajectory of rounds fired by a seated defender at a standing shooter would have posed no danger to ducking patrons nearby, or to anyone more distant, nevermind in an adjacent theater.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 9/15/2013 6:12:53 AM >

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:12:55 AM

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the reality IS dead people and shots thru the wall, the fantasy is what if people had been armed

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:15:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

the reality IS dead people and shots thru the wall, the fantasy is what if people had been armed

The reality is that he picked a gun-free zone, the fantasy is that resistance would have resulted in even more dead and wounded.

K.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:28:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

the reality IS dead people and shots thru the wall, the fantasy is what if people had been armed

The reality is that he picked a gun-free zone, the fantasy is that resistance would have resulted in even more dead and wounded.

K.

Lucy needs to watch this video. It would even be better, and more educational for all of us, to have Lucy explain to Ms. Hupp how she would have been in more danger had she been armed.

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:35:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

Some patrons, at least, would have had a silouetted target at virtually point blank range. Others wouldn't have had any shot at all regardless of where they were sitting. And the rest would fall somewhere in between.

K.

This seems like a reasonable summation of the probabilities. From which it may be gleaned that the presence of an armed citizen may have made a difference providing they were sitting in the right place(s) and would have made no difference if they were sitting in some other places. In the remaining cases, the chances of an armed citizen making a difference fall in between.

There are other factors to be taken into account to - visibility, possession of an appropriate weapon, general state of chaos, firearms proficiency etc. It should be noted that some of these additional factors are completely beyond the control of the armed shooter.

Therefore the claim: "the presence of an armed citizen would have stopped the shooter' is untenable on this evidence.

However the claim: 'An armed shooter might have stopped the shooter if all of the other relevant factors were satisfied' is tenable on this evidence .

The bottom line is that no one can state with any certainty what would or wouldn't have happened. Therefore the unqualified assurances, advanced by certain pro-gun posters here, that an armed citizen would have made a difference are not, indeed cannot, be valid.

While I may have been unclear on this I never meant to say that the citizen winning was a sure thing.
I was explaining how it could have reasonably worked for him.
Even if the odds are 10-1 against (and I consider them to be far better) that is still far better than just hoping he goes after someone else and doesn't want to kill too many people.
Any chance is better than no chance.

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:50:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

the reality IS dead people and shots thru the wall, the fantasy is what if people had been armed

The reality is that he picked a gun-free zone, the fantasy is that resistance would have resulted in even more dead and wounded.

K.

Lucy needs to watch this video. It would even be better, and more educational for all of us, to have Lucy explain to Ms. Hupp how she would have been in more danger had she been armed.

yeah Ill get right on that ....... NOT...
keep fantasizing

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:54:25 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
yeah Ill get right on that ....... NOT...
keep fantasizing

Have you never watched her testimony before the US Senate? She was there! At Luby's when it happened.

Shame on you for being so dismissive.

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 6:56:54 AM

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I dont give a fuck what you think... try someone who cares about your opinion

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 7:00:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

yeah Ill get right on that ....... NOT...

I don't need to look through your stupid telescope ~Cesare Cremonini

K.

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 7:08:22 AM

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Ive already seen it...It still doesnt change THE facts.
im not the one fantasizing

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 7:29:30 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

Some patrons, at least, would have had a silouetted target at virtually point blank range. Others wouldn't have had any shot at all regardless of where they were sitting. And the rest would fall somewhere in between.

K.

This seems like a reasonable summation of the probabilities. From which it may be gleaned that the presence of an armed citizen may have made a difference providing they were sitting in the right place(s) and would have made no difference if they were sitting in some other places. In the remaining cases, the chances of an armed citizen making a difference fall in between.

There are other factors to be taken into account to - visibility, possession of an appropriate weapon, general state of chaos, firearms proficiency etc. It should be noted that some of these additional factors are completely beyond the control of the armed shooter.

Therefore the claim: "the presence of an armed citizen would have stopped the shooter' is untenable on this evidence.

However the claim: 'An armed shooter might have stopped the shooter if all of the other relevant factors were satisfied' is tenable on this evidence .

The bottom line is that no one can state with any certainty what would or wouldn't have happened. Therefore the unqualified assurances, advanced by certain pro-gun posters here, that an armed citizen would have made a difference are not, indeed cannot, be valid.

I don't think any of the pro gun posters were giving any assurances. We were simply trying to show that an armed citizen stopping that idiot in a crowded theater was doable.

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 10:38:46 AM

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Not trying to be mean but it is equal fantasy to say "What if there were no guns in the US."

It is not going to happen, so the better route is to say "How can gun ownership be made safer and not challenge the second amendment."

That goal right there is in the realm of realistic and if more efforts were made towards that goal in discussion, then possibly more ideas would come about and people's mentalities would slowly change to accept that there needs to be more safety which will mean more strict gun laws.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

the reality IS dead people and shots thru the wall, the fantasy is what if people had been armed

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 11:05:00 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Not trying to be mean but it is equal fantasy to say "What if there were no guns in the US."

It is not going to happen, so the better route is to say "How can gun ownership be made safer and not challenge the second amendment."

That goal right there is in the realm of realistic and if more efforts were made towards that goal in discussion, then possibly more ideas would come about and people's mentalities would slowly change to accept that there needs to be more safety which will mean more strict gun laws.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

the reality IS dead people and shots thru the wall, the fantasy is what if people had been armed

Well that's just mean

........but seriously, ya got any ideas ?

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 1:56:36 PM

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Firearms safety courses is something that is catching on. They need to be renewed after a certain period of time.

Laws that require stricter storage of firearms, and severe penalties for those that do not comply.

Another is a background database that has a flag or no flag that would be updated for those that have under gone psychiatric care for certain things. Not an entire medical report, just a flag of yes if they have been diagnosed or treated for certain conditions. This would mean those people would need to appear before a judge and seek an exception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Well that's just mean ........but seriously, ya got any ideas ?

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 3:09:32 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Firearms safety courses is something that is catching on. They need to be renewed after a certain period of time.

Laws that require stricter storage of firearms, and severe penalties for those that do not comply.

Another is a background database that has a flag or no flag that would be updated for those that have under gone psychiatric care for certain things. Not an entire medical report, just a flag of yes if they have been diagnosed or treated for certain conditions. This would mean those people would need to appear before a judge and seek an exception.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Well that's just mean ........but seriously, ya got any ideas ?

Those are not unpalatable. I would be most in favor of going after criminals, guns in particular but overall crime in general. First thing pass a law that says we enforce laws not being enforced. For one example when the thousands of idiots with a gun purchasing disability because of past crimes try to buy a gun, they should be arrested on the spot when that flag pops up if at all possible. Prosecute them with mandatory penalties and all the rest of it. Go after street gangs. Gangs commit an overwhelming percentage of the gun violence. Organize gang task forces linked together from police agencies across the US including federal components. Of course the illegal drug trade throws a monkey wrench into everything with profits ranging from tens of thousands at the street level to millions as it goes up the food chain. Prison overcrowding is another monkey wrench so things would have to be worked out. Kirata mentioned too many gun crimes plea bargained down and the revolving door justice system. Fix that shit too.

Drinking and guns don't mix either. Laws similar to drunk driving laws concerning those with guns in the field or packing concealed heat would be helpful.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 9/15/2013 3:11:18 PM >

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 3:23:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Not trying to be mean but it is equal fantasy to say "What if there were no guns in the US."

It sort of *has* happened, in some tiny ways. It seems to me that there are places and spaces in the US, as in a lot of countries, where people can't legally carry guns, and places and spaces where there seem to be unwritten agreements not to carry them. Unofficial 'sanctuary areas', I guess these could be called. I discovered this phenomenon when a friend left Uni to get lecturing work in Northern Ireland: the Belfast Uni precinct was pretty much left alone by the various warring factions. (Just as well, because my friend had a strong Southern English accent and refused to let his hair grow.)

Presumably, people once felt safe in cinemas in the USA and they didn't worry greatly about leaving their children in schools. It would be good to preserve such sanctuaries, perhaps. Or re-create them.

Re that last: what happened to the idea of metal detectors and the like at the entrances of schools and cinemas? Presumably there were sound practical reasons why these wouldn't work?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 9/15/2013 3:24:30 PM >

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 3:58:37 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

If anyone is missing the fucking point, it certainly isnt me.

Your arguments betray a preference for fantasy and dead victims over resistance. You insist against all reason that if an armed citizen had intefered even more people would have been wounded or killed, when it should be obvious that if this rampage been stopped there would have been fewer dead and wounded, even if the effort came at a cost. And just as an added detail, the upward trajectory of rounds fired by a seated defender at a standing shooter would have posed no danger to ducking patrons nearby, or to anyone more distant, nevermind in an adjacent theater.

K.

Utter bollocks........ my preference, clearly stated twice, is for no guns. No guns, no dead people, a simple fact you seem unable to comprehend.

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RE: Lets have another gun - antigun thread... - 9/15/2013 3:58:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Not trying to be mean but it is equal fantasy to say "What if there were no guns in the US."

It is not going to happen, so the better route is to say "How can gun ownership be made safer and not challenge the second amendment."

That goal right there is in the realm of realistic and if more efforts were made towards that goal in discussion, then possibly more ideas would come about and people's mentalities would slowly change to accept that there needs to be more safety which will mean more strict gun laws.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

the reality IS dead people and shots thru the wall, the fantasy is what if people had been armed

You?? mean??? Never:) I had that naive fantasy of being no guns anywhere, but I do realise it is just that a fantasy,
Mental health check should be a reality, but is a fantasy with the state of the healthcare system.
I agree that gun ownership should be made safer. Someone will however challenge any effort to do so...that is also reality.
Meanwhile the innocent dead pile up.

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