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"We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 7:32:14 AM   
DsBound


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Turns out "some things" are a huge hit to the middle class, not to mention the self-employed. These are significant increases... wouldn't you agree?
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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 7:36:26 AM   
DomKen


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I think it's sort of cute that anyone still pays any attention to the bleatings of Grover Norquist.

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 7:52:45 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I think it's sort of cute that anyone still pays any attention to the bleatings of Grover Norquist.


Doesn't change the fact that what started out as "not a tax", oh wait... "yes, it is a tax"... then we're told "you can keep you same plan or your current plan will not change". Don't deflect!!

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 7:56:45 AM   
mnottertail


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Well, yeah but it is mostly asswipe spun into teabagger cotton candy:


http://l.barackobama.com/truth-team/entry/the-facts-behind-americans-for-tax-reforms-five-claims-about-obamacare/

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:07:29 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well, yeah but it is mostly asswipe spun into teabagger cotton candy:


http://l.barackobama.com/truth-team/entry/the-facts-behind-americans-for-tax-reforms-five-claims-about-obamacare/


Ahhh... I see. I should have just went straight to dear leaders website for the "truth".

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:09:08 AM   
mnottertail


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it is not his website. You did go to your dear leaders website for your 'truth' which, as is the usual modus operandi of the teabaggers hysterical and false hallucinations.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:09:59 AM   
DsBound


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Isn't that cute... they are so helpful, too!

Need information about other political attacks you see? Share what you’re hearing with us here, and we’ll make sure we get the facts to fight back.

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:17:58 AM   
DsBound


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Going down their list, I chuckle... I've yet to read any discrepancies. They add all sorts of feel good words to make it sound awesome and make you feel comfy cozy, but the numbers thus far are pretty accurate. AND Ask... since when does the IRS or the government ask for anything.

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:23:09 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, since the asswipe in the OP was false, we really don't need a recapitulation of why the truth of the matter is unacceptable to teabaggers.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:26:37 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
http://l.barackobama.com/truth-team/entry/the-facts-behind-americans-for-tax-reforms-five-claims-about-obamacare/

Just as with the CATO institute, I discarded that site as obviously left-wing propaganda.

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officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:32:32 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, since the asswipe in the OP was false, we really don't need a recapitulation of why the truth of the matter is unacceptable to teabaggers.



Wow... okay so from your posts, those are not substantial increases to you. I like the constant name tossing though... that always adds to a discussion.

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:34:06 AM   
mnottertail


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I pretty much discarded this thread at the outset, it was a foil, a right wing bunch of shit against a left wing bunch of shit.


However, the huge middle class hit is nowhere to be found. Hysterically frenetic masturbation. The hit comes from elsewhere.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 8:43:26 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, since the asswipe in the OP was false, we really don't need a recapitulation of why the truth of the matter is unacceptable to teabaggers.


Wow... okay so from your posts, those are not substantial increases to you. I like the constant name tossing though... that always adds to a discussion.


There is no discussion, there is a foolish and lying hit piece without the actual facts in the OP designed to incite, inflame and drive the feeble-minded into a masturabatory frenzy. Big fuckin deal. Do not presume to project some stupid shit into what I say, either. I say what I say, and do not need interpretation particularly those who evince so little domain of the subject matter. That is a big loser.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 9:09:44 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Well, yeah but it is mostly asswipe spun into teabagger cotton candy:
http://l.barackobama.com/truth-team/entry/the-facts-behind-americans-for-tax-reforms-five-claims-about-obamacare/


I practically fell out of my chair laughing at your claims of spin in the OP's link, and then link to the article you did! You talk about spin!!

    1. Medical Device Tax:
      ATR says it will hit those makers with an excise tax on gross sales, which is greater than if it were on net sales. ATR also claims that this excise tax will apply even when the business doesn't make a profit.

      OfA says it just "asks the industries that will gain more business from the expansion of coverage to pay their fair share."
Taking 2.3% off the top is a "fair share?" That's on top of the normal taxes they will be paying anyway. What this does is say that Medical Device manufacturers weren't paying their fair share before.
    2. Obamacare High Medical Bills Tax:
      ATR: The raise in the floor from 7.5% to 10% could effect up to 10M people with higher taxes. The average AGI for those qualifying for this deduction is $53k.
      OfA: The floor was raised because now all Americans will have access to affordable health care and their coverage will be there when they need it.


With it being pegged to AGI, the more you make, the more you'd have to spend to qualify, meaning that it's quite likely that this deduction will be used more by "middle class" families, not "the rich." What OfA is saying is that those spending more than 7.5% but less than 10% of their AGI on qualified medical expenses will no longer get a tax credit so there could be "tax credits that make quality health insurance affordable for everyone" (which isn't completely true as those tax credits will only be available to those individuals/families that qualify under the income and family size charts. That is not "all Americans."

    3. Obamacare Flexible Spending Account Tax:
      ATR: This will effect 30-35M people and potentially mean $18B (over 10 years) in more tax revenues, at the expense of those 30-35M Americans.
      OfA: The limit won't hit that many people, citing $1200 as the average contribution. They also claim an estimation of 14% lose money at the end of the year (use-it-or-lose-it provision).


This is a tough one. I question ATR's claim of $18B. That's probably the total tax savings for the entirety of the monies added into FSA's, not just the tax on monies in excess of $2500. While 14% of contributors may, in fact, lose money at the end of the year, what kind of money are we talking about? 35M people at $1200 average contribution is $42B. Even if the average loss is the full $1200 avg. contribution, we're still talking <$6B. If people put too much in and don't use it, that's their choice, isn't it? I might have to look into how much, in excess of $2500 has been contributed to see if this is really a big deal. I'm sure it will be for some people, but how many? 30-35M? I highly doubt that.

    4. Obamacare Super Saver Surtax: A new, 3.8 percent surtax on investment income:
      ATR: Implies the "new" tax rates are too high.
      OfA: Claims that this is just removing the tax protection of investment income from Medicare Taxes.


I agree with both, actually. Yes, OfA's claim that this is, essentially, adding Medicare Taxation to investment income, has merit since the Medicare Tax is a payroll tax and investment income isn't payroll, and the new Medicare tax rates will be 3.8% for those making over $200k/$250k (indiv/fam). One has to wonder why those making under those dollar amounts won't have to pay 2.9% on their investment income (to match the Payroll Tax for money under those dollar amounts). Did the President and Co. miss an opportunity?

    5. Obamacare Medicare Payroll Tax Increase:
      ATR implies that the increased tax rate (up 0.9% on incomes over $200k/$250k indiv/fam) employees will have to pay is too high.
      OfA: ATR is wrong that it will hurt a business, as it will only apply to employee contributions.


While OfA is, technically, correct in their reasoning, they are incorrect in their claim. ATR didn't say it was going to hurt business, but that it would hurt "Americans." A bit disingenuous there. There is no rebuttal to the implication that a 0.9% increase is going to hurt Americans, other than using the "wealth" card.

One has to wonder why the OfA piece didn't address all the claims of the ATR piece.

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  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
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  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 9:28:53 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, I laugh at someone pedantically tutoring us in something they don't quite got a basic understanding of.

The tax is 2.3 percent of the sale price of the taxable medical device. See Chapter 5 of IRS Publication 510, Excise Taxes, and Notice 2012-77 for additional information on the determination of sale price.

Now, who are those devices sold to, from a manufacturer of same? Hmmmmmmm. Not you. Let's say a hospital lets say it is a prosthetic leg. Do you think the device went up the 2.3 percent (in gross terms) of sale price to cover that? One thinks so, after all, we are not communists here. Now, the hospital outfits you with the leg, and insurance pays, and the premium set accordingly, and how much of the market is overseas and how much are the commies going to be contributing to our health care premiums?


At an estimated US$127.1bn in 2013, the US medical device market is the world's largest. Per capita expenditure, at US$399, is the highest in the world.

Much of the market is in private hands; there is no single health system. Public healthcare systems, known as Medicaid, for those on low incomes, are operated by each State. Since 1960, the Medicare system has provided hospital care for the elderly; this has also provided prescription drug coverage since 2006.

President Obama succeeded in signing his healthcare reform bill into law on 23rd March 2010. The bill, formally called the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) HR 3590, will eventually extend health insurance cover to an estimated 32mn Americans who do not have any form of health insurance.

The PPACA requires all States to create new health insurance markets called exchanges, so that people who do not have insurance can buy tax-payer subsidised private cover. The law also expands eligibility for Medicaid so low-income adults who have no dependent children can get government insurance. Putting the two approaches together, more than 30mn Americans are expected to gain coverage by January 2014. At the end of June 2012, the Supreme Court upheld the entire law in a 5-to-4 decision which deemed that the mandate was constitutional under the taxing authority afforded to the federal
government.

The USA is home to many of the world's leading medical device manufacturers, such as Johnson & Johnson, General Electric, Baxter, Covidien and Medtronic. Seven out of the world's top ten medical device manufacturers are US companies.

So as we laugh, guffaw and muddle thru the lies here (doesnt look like much of a hit on our middle class) let's try not to come up with these simple gotchas in ignorant policies, because they are slightly more complex, than your local yokel teabagger is going to be capable of commenting on with their woefully inadequate command of the language, numbers, policy, and their considerable ineptitude in all matters.



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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 10:08:54 AM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound

Going down their list, I chuckle... I've yet to read any discrepancies. They add all sorts of feel good words to make it sound awesome and make you feel comfy cozy, but the numbers thus far are pretty accurate. AND Ask... since when does the IRS or the government ask for anything.

Oh please, AFR is nothing but distortions and as far as taxing so-called 'investment' income goes...it has been a long time coming.

I have to laugh at how the great and glorious manifestation of all human incentive lies in a free market yet the rich somehow seek to immorally justify an additional tax incentive to invest in that paradise of profit. Funny how the poor don't have any such incentives. Their incentive is mere survival and they need no tax code 'incentives.' The capitalist's incentive is $million so govt., don't touch my incentives.

I take again the opportunity to applaud those who while I could hit the golf course at noon, make $millions and pay 15% you guys are just so happy busting your ass dawn till dusk, maybe 50-60 hrs /week, make real good salaries (but mere pedestrian 'income' mind you) and pay 35%. Thank you...thank you, thank you. I keep 85% of my millions, you keep 65% of your 'great' salary.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/26/2013 10:13:11 AM >

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 10:27:39 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsBound


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yeah, since the asswipe in the OP was false, we really don't need a recapitulation of why the truth of the matter is unacceptable to teabaggers.


Wow... okay so from your posts, those are not substantial increases to you. I like the constant name tossing though... that always adds to a discussion.


There is no discussion, there is a foolish and lying hit piece without the actual facts in the OP designed to incite, inflame and drive the feeble-minded into a masturabatory frenzy. Big fuckin deal. Do not presume to project some stupid shit into what I say, either. I say what I say, and do not need interpretation particularly those who evince so little domain of the subject matter. That is a big loser.


Clearly, you have "stupid shit" down to an art all on your own.

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 10:35:40 AM   
mnottertail


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I see so many of the untutored striving and gnashing and clawing to become the GrandMasters of the stupid shit, that I find myself somewhat embarrassed by an intellectual starchblocker called fact, reason, intellect.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 10:58:55 AM   
DsBound


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I see so many of the untutored striving and gnashing and clawing to become the GrandMasters of the stupid shit, that I find myself somewhat embarrassed by an intellectual starchblocker called fact, reason, intellect.


You are clearly a worshiper of the state... as a follower of austrian economics, this is insanity. It's difficult to discuss anything with you because you seem to look away from any other source, that does not worship Obama. I typically look at things from a non-partisan standpoint... could care less about right or left. More debt is not good. Less rights are not good.

In almost every post I've seen of yours... you do the exact same thing. You pick one area that can be easily criticized, freeze frame it, and repeat, repeat, repeat. I'm curious... were your blinders installed as an infant or did you get them later in life? Because to me, you can not see past anything besides worshipping the government. You may impress people around coffee shops with your parlor trick, but you do not impress me. What is the actual role of the government in your eyes? If it resembles anything close to the original intent, I don't see how you can so quickly dismiss numbers.

You posted a link, and though I thought it was hysterically sourced, I still read it... even past the vitriol you spew. Stop, breath (use a brown bag if needed) and delve into the world of austrian economics, regardless of party, you can see what our government is doing is wrong.

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RE: "We did raise taxes on some things" - 9/26/2013 11:09:52 AM   
mnottertail


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Yeah, that is pretty hallucinatory. I didn't vote for Obama *TWICE* and Obama really doesn't have much to bring into this, he wasn't about not raising taxes, and it seems that it is very murky in terms of how this will bring heavier burdens to the middle class in and of itself.

Austrian Economics...............uhhhhhhh yeah.

Not a keynesian here and certainly not an austrian.


You exhibit methodological subjectivism perhaps, but it is destined to fail for two reasons, you don't know the economics, clearly, and if the premises are ignorant of fact, the perorations can hardly be serviceable or useful.


Now you may be talking about the new stuff which is easily as bankrupt as either Keynes, Smith or Von Mises etc, Austrian.

Because there was, is and never will be a free market. And simple linear calculations are foolishness in a chaotically dynamic system. (but the fairytale of the first is a bankrupter to the ideas of all of them).


< Message edited by mnottertail -- 9/26/2013 11:13:47 AM >


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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